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Author Topic: Hornsub shootout  (Read 43980 times)

Wayne Parham

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Re: Hornsub shootout
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2005, 03:50:16 PM »


Thanks for your input.  Those are good suggestions, having music for part of the time on each system instead of just measurement signals.  Do you think you'll be able to attend?

For me, there are two priorities for this event.  One is prototype testing, which I have to do anyway.  I would like to see how some of the devices I am working on stack up in comparison to others.

An example is the cooling device I'm working on.  I can get raw measurements, temperature, current and power.  I can measure frequency response and SPL.  But I'd really like to have a side-by-side comparison of two similar systems, one with and one without.

I can always use two of my own horns, one with the device and one without.  But I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone and make it a get together with some of the other people in the area that have common interests.

When I was working on the 12Pi project, I had considered making the horn layout very different.  That makes unquestionable physical uniqueness and uniqueness of appearance.  But as I approached the final testing of the cooling device, I realized that it could be made in a way that was compatible to other systems if I laid it out similarly.  So that is exactly what I did.  I positioned it to be useful for others.

That is one reason why I wanted to have this event.  It allows me the possibility of making this part available to others right away.  We can see what it does on other boxes as well as mine.

So that's one of my main goals.  That and the experience of interacting with everyone.  It's always nice to have a gathering like this.  That's a priority for me, having a chance to visit with everyone.

Johan Van Zyl and David Lee are practically neighbors of mine.  Johan is about 4 hours away, and I think David is about 8 hours away.  That makes the event pretty easy for them to attend.  There are some people in Texas that have Fitzmaurice boxes, so I expect they might come too.  And of course, I'm hoping to see lots of others with all kinds of loudspeaker systems.  I really don't want this to turn into some kind of exclusive event.  I'd like to see some unity of the various user groups.

I'll probably see if David Miller will do measurements, if everyone is comfortable with that.  Or maybe one of the guys at Ford Audio would be willing to do so.  I'd also invite all the participants to perform their own measurements, and I'll be doing that too.  But I'd like to have an impartial third-party doing measurements, someone not associated with any of us.  It would be nice to have everyone involved be comfortable with the choice of this person, and we could all sign off on them.

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Wayne Parham
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Wayne Parham

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Ground Pounding Action, action, action!
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2005, 03:41:19 AM »


Well guys, we're in.  Tulsa Raceway has agreed to allow us to host the event there.  The date is Friday, October 14th, from 10:00am to 6:00pm.  The price is $10.00 for admission to the raceway, and for that, you can stay all day for the prosound event and through the evening for the racing event.  

After 6:00pm, the track will have car races.  That night is test-n-tune, when racers are running and calibrating.  You can even bring your car and run it if you want.  There will be everything there from street cars to nitrous burning ground pounders.  It will really be a lot of fun for the price, and you can come and go as you please through the day and evening.

The racing complex has all the power we'll need, 110v, 220v even up to 480v three-phase.  So we're set for power.  The stadium seating on the north side of the track provides cover, so should we get rain, our equipment won't be exposed.

I'm really looking forward to this.  It should be a great time on several levels.  We can test and examine our sound equipment all afternoon, and check out the cool cars all evening.  Everyone is welcome, DIY and pros, so please come on out.

If you need suggestions on hotels or anything else about the area, please contact me.  I'll setup a little website at www.ProsoundShootout.com to provide information and list who is planning to attend.  If you intend to be there and want to have your gear listed, please let me know and send some pics.  I'll put it up so people can see who's coming.  We'll also post photos and test results after the event.

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Wayne Parham
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Pascal Pincosy

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Re: Hornsub shootout
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2005, 03:51:49 PM »

Elliot Thompson wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 09:11


While the Subwoofer Shootout in NY had the right equipment
to perform the measurements, and, a wide variety of speakers,
we were very limited on music CDs.

I guess we all basically got caught up on the technical
side of things, and, forgot about the bottomline....
The music.

Seeing that you will have guys passing through from
all walks of life, different styles of music will play
a factor on how each sub compete head to head in the
ears of the listners.  



I'd suggest having a live drummer and bassist on-site. While having pre-recorded audio is nice and all, having some real instruments would make for excellent means to show off the peak capabilities of the various subs.

Pascal
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles

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Tulsa Raceway site Q's
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2005, 05:01:13 PM »

How do you know the race track area will be quiet enough for testing? I would bet that there will be people working on their engines (including revving them up and low idling) in the pit area before the official car stuff is supposed to start. There might also be announcements over the paging system horns. It doesn't seem like your LF measurements will be free from extraneous noise.

You said if it rains then the gear can go under the grandstand. Is the grandstand underneath space slanted or stair-stepped? If so, it will load the subwoofers in an atypical way. Most end users will load them in other ways. Of course, it will work just fine if the grandstand underneath area is shaped something like a stage.

If the grandstand underneath area is a metal framework finished with metal sheeting then you have to be on the lookout for your LF exciting and rattling the structure. Concrete would be quietest.

Good luck with your shootout -

-Bink
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Wayne Parham

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Re: Tulsa Raceway site Q's
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2005, 04:13:58 AM »


The complex is huge, and has several acres of open land.  The cars don't start coming until late in the afternoon and they won't be running until 6:00pm.  Morning and afternoon are all ours.

Hope to see you there!

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Wayne Parham
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Wayne Parham

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Re: Hornsub shootout
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2005, 08:46:38 AM »


The Prosound Shootout is scheduled for October 14th.

A system from Bassmaxx, one from Fitzmaurice and one of mine are going to be there.  But we haven't heard from you or Tom Danley.  Do you plan on bringing one of your systems for evaluation?

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Tom Danley

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Re: Hornsub shootout
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2005, 01:13:39 PM »

Hi Wayne
I have replied about your shoot out several times.
I have asked how exactly you were going to compare the various units, for example, are you going to account for the various load impedance’s etc?, are you going to listen to the subs with full range music or subs alone?
Are you going to measure them too? If so, how?
You have not answered, perhaps your still working out the details.

The reason the impedance question matters to me is I have a new box which is only 20 cu/ft exterior dim, but a single unit has over 101 dB 1W1M (measured @ 10 meters, 100W in half space) sensitivity down to about 30 Hz.
But, it is a real 8 Ohm load.
For example, driven with 2.8 Volts, your computer model has a very similar Voltage sensitivity and response shape even though your Impedance curve looks more like a 2 ½  Ohm load or a little less, most of the time and so, the 2.8V reference used in the model is actually significantly more (3 or 4 dB) than 1 Watt.

On the other hand, if what was being measured was how loud it went, then I wouldn’t care about Voltage sensitivity vs efficiency, just that you had a “big enough” amplifier and a proper measurement mic and setup, but again there is little info about “what” your doing technically.
On your sub shootout web site one might get the impression that the issue is which is the biggest, heaviest sub of all, where my interest is more in which has the most output for its size or low cutoff.

Also, you would be more likely to draw live sound people if you had more of the gear people are familiar with to compare against, particularly some vented box subs.  
Some element of the marketplace is willing to consider that the “emperor may have new cloths” and an honest side by side comparison will generally reveal that reality one way or the other.  
If your trying to get something going in live sound selling plans or what ever for your larger sub, get some of what most of the market is using or familiar with to listen to side by side.  
There really are some horrid sounding, very popular products in common use but until people can hear how much difference there really is side by side, they have no idea what they are missing, trust me, we are building a nice business on sound quality.
Contrast your 12pi to those "big name" products if you want to hear how successfully your product performs and drum up interest.

The lack of technical test information thus far, combined with the fact that this is the first sub shootout to be held / organized by someone promoting a product / design / web site / web forum / line of kits, suggests there is the chance for bias.

Until there is some specific information about how (technically) your going to compare the systems, or, until there is more interest towards getting some of the more popular live sound subwoofers in for comparison, I am not inclined to suggest our speakers or personnel be diverted from current sales / demo opportunities.

Cheers,

Tom Danley

Danley Sound Labs
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Hornsub shootout-some more questions---
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2005, 06:11:00 PM »

Just to add a couple of things to Toms concerns-
Do you have proper power available-ie a distro?

Where exactly will the shootout be located-in relation to the track?
If there is a conflict-how much time is available to load out?

What time is the track available for loadin and setup-test etc?

What type of amps do you have lined up to power the system?

Are you providing shorting plugs for all the cabinets not under test?

What type of switching sytem are you going to use, or just plug and unplug?

Are you providing all the cables to do so?  

What about music playback.  Are you providing player-mixer etc.?

I am assuming that each "participant" will have to provide their own crossovers for their cabinets.  How will these be switched around?

Are you going to allow particular eq to be used on a particular speaker?  If the answer is yes then no problem-if no-then what about the speakers with dedicated processors that have eq built in?  Are those allowed?

How much time is allowed to properly measure each speaker? and what type of measurements are you wanting to take?

Who is going to be responsible for gathering the data and putting it in a paper so it can be read by others here?  That is a bunch of extra "work" on somebodys part.

How much time will be alloted for listening?

Is there time allowed for a meeting for all of those in attendance to "go over the rules(drivers meeting)"?

Sorry to be harping on the time issue, but it appears that there is not much time to do everything properly, except for only a few speakers and if only a few speakers will be there, then what is the point.  I agree with Tom in that there needs to be some of the "industry standards" such as SB1000 & LAB12 among others to compair to.  Word of mouth such as "those things rock" is worthless without actual measurement and side by side listening tests.  Do you have anything lined up?

Is there food available during the day or will you be taking a lunch break-cutting into the time limitations?

Who is going to choose the listening material?  Some speakers will outperform others greatly depending on the freq content of the material.  I would suggest stuff that contains both really low stuff (30hz) or lower and punchy material, to see how speakers respond on both.

I assume that if any drivers are damaged-then it is the responsibility of the owners to take care of it.

If it is not a structured event, and just a "blast fest" there will be little gained from it.
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Wayne Parham

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Re: Hornsub shootout
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2005, 12:10:33 PM »


One of the things I'm most committed to in this matter is having unbiased and impartial measurements made by a competent tester.  I've been pretty vocal about my concerns with measurement confidence and I think that's been an obvious goal from the start.

I am also pretty set on the idea of having a written test plan.  This is to be performed consistently on all systems, and it is to be signed off by all participants.  That way we'll all know what we're getting into before we start.  Things like power levels are an obvious part of that.

I've been in touch with with Curtis List and Michael Knowles about the possibility of their acting as independent consultants to perform measurements.  I've also asked Paul Bell if he might be available.  Curtis can't but Michael might be able to, and said he'd let us know by September.  That would ensure impartiality, by having the tests done by a competent independent.

If this isn't possible, then another option is to have more than one set of measurements, performed by at least two of the participants.  That will provide a sort of checks and balances.  What I don't want is to have one of the participants perform the only set of tests because that might make the others uncomfortable, as you now appear to be.

I agree with you fully on the matter of confidence, something that I've been concerned about from the start.  If you come, you'll know the schedule and test plan prior to the event, and will have an opportunity to discuss these things ahead of time.  Each of us will sign off on the test plan and schedule of events.

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Wayne Parham
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Wayne Parham

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Re: Hornsub shootout-some more questions---
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2005, 12:22:15 PM »


Those of us that are planning to attend have been working out those kinds of details.  We're committed to having a couple hours to evaluate each system, first to test and then to listen.  The site itelf has plenty of power and space.  We'll have the track all day, until 6:00pm.  After that, we can unload or stay for the races, whatever.  Would you like to get involved?  Are you planning to attend?

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Wayne Parham
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