ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab  (Read 28853 times)

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
    • http://www.geocities.com/somesoundgreat
EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« on: April 26, 2005, 01:19:39 pm »

     Hey I have a couple of used EVM15B's one of which I toasted but thats a different story.  I just had a couple of EV Spec TL606's built for them as a bass rig.

    I was testing the good one out (Ampeg pro3 275 @ 8 450 @ 4) and everything seemed Hunky dory.  But If I try to boost my Bass Shelving control Like 6dB and Hit a low note hard.  The 15 will make a sound like some one Shorting out an electrical socket.  

    Am I just bottoming out the coil I've never heard a smacking coil make that loud of a sound before.  I practice through some good Ole EVM12L's in a EVspec TL806 box.  I've never made them bottom out and I've boosted the hell out of the low end and driven them hard for hours.

    The Xmax of the drivers is .13in for both 15 & 12.
The only other thing I can think of is that I may have a 100Watt model but there is not Power Handling marked on the basket just a stamp with serial and model.

    Does anyone here know if a 100Watt model EVM15B can be re-coned with a 200W or 300W coil?  Or am I stuck with the physical limitations of this particular basket/magnet gap Assembly?

 I know these things roll off pretty quick around -3 to 5dB at 50Hz.  The head has no high pass feature, If it is a 100Watt model  I guess my head is a poor match and I'll have to re-cone or go a different route.

Sum    
Logged

peter.golde

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 252
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2005, 02:42:04 pm »

Orange County Speaker or EV should be able to recone that driver for 400 watts, never heard of the 100 watt version, I thought they were 200 watts origonally. The driver is probably bottoming out due to an old beat suspension. These drivers are worth reparing. IMHO
Logged
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer" - Frank Zappa

Elliot Thompson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1573
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2005, 02:43:44 pm »

Electrovoice never made a 100 watt EVM 15B.

They made a 200 watt, and, the 400 watt (EVM 15B Proline)

Also, the EVM series are instrument loudspeakers. They
are not, I repeat not woofers. With the EVM 15B offers
a - 3dB @ 60 Hertz, not 50 Hertz.

Best Regards,
Logged
Elliot

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab-actually--
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2005, 03:31:51 pm »

I used to have quite a few of the "100 watt" versions.  They were OEM from Ev and i used to get them through a local MI/pro dealer.  I was told (and I believed also) that they were the same as the EV200watt versions.  I think Kustom used to use them. They were stamped OEM on the back 100Watt.  I believe this was so as not be confused with the regular EV product.  They ARE the exact smae thing as I reconed them with proline parts many years later.  This does not make them a proline-as there are other advantages to the proline (heatsink among others), but they are an upgrade from the EVM line.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
    • http://www.geocities.com/somesoundgreat
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2005, 04:58:46 pm »

Yah I know the F3 of the cab is like 63Hz unless you use a step-down plug and EQ the thing.  Theoretically the Cab will put out 50Hz about 6dB down at maximum Rated power.  I would never consider these things a sub.  Maybe Mid bass (I use these for a Bass rig).

    The guys at A Brown Soun' In Marin think it could be a worn Spider too.  

    I haven't been in the Market for a 15" in a while but I haven't seen to many High output 15's with an Fs of lower than 40Hz.  Are there any Driver Alternatives that you guys know of that might Be a suitable Xchange for the EVM's That could drop in to the TL-606's

    Has anyone here had any real world experience with a JBL 2242?  I have an old 2245 in a 4518 particle board 30Hz Cab (8cu' with three big ports in it used for Cinema installs).  I wanted to find out If I could Load That cab with a 2242 instead scince the 2245 Is a little Wimpy as far as SPL and power handling (It almost does it for 5 String But I gotta Push it prety hard) Compared to the EVM12L's and Piezos for my Bass rig top box, which I have to back off substantially to have any sort of Balance.

Sum
Logged

Elliot Thompson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1573
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2005, 06:12:25 pm »

Doing a quick caculation with the box you mentioned

2245 tuned to 30 Hertz =  - 3dB @ 39.15 Hz

2242 tuned to 30 Hertz =  - 3dB @ 79.09 Hz

2241 tuned to 30 Hertz =  - 3dB @ 46.01 Hz

Peavey Low Rider 18 tuned to 30 Hertz = - 3dB @ 43.51 Hz

If your heart is set on JBL, buy the 2241. If you
want to save some money, and get better results,
Peavey Low Rider 18.

At 400 watts
The 2242 will be louder from 65 Hertz and up.
The Low Rider will be louder from 60 - 35 Hertz
The difference between the two = 2 db's

Thats a 2 db dip on the 2242 from 60 - 35 Hertz
compared the Low Rider 18. And, a 2 db gain over
the Low Rider 18 from 65 Hertz up.

To be honest, your better off just building another
single 18 cab than replacing. EVM's are nortorious for
being very loud, so, you'll need a dual eighteen to
keep up with an EVM.

Best Regards,  


Logged
Elliot

Mike Smith

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
    • http://www.eventtechnicalsystems.com/
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab-actually--
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2005, 04:15:09 pm »

Hi Ivan,

The 100 watt EVMs were upgraded to 200 watts when EV changed the voice coil lead wire termination. They originally twisted the VC ribbon wire around the tinsel lead, and crimped or soldered it. They found that by attaching a wide beryllium/copper strip to the leads they could double the power handling. The 400 watt Pro Line drivers achieved their power handling through the use of a hi-temp coating that reinforced the voice coil windings. EV also applied Teflon to the pole piece and top plate of the Pro Line drivers to "lubricate" occasional voice coil rubs due to excessive excursion. You can put the 400 watt kits in the older speakers, but they may not quite shake out the same as the correct Pro Line motor.

The old EV eighteens were either 100 watts, or 200 watts, can't remember offhand; but the funny part was they were sold for a while with 4 ohms being the standard impedance. Crown DC300As ate those guys like popcorn. Those were the days.

400 watts was about the most they could squeeze out of that motor size. The 2.5" coil size was left over from the old Alnico days; EV put their pole piece on TOP of the Alnico slug, Jim Lansing made his voice coil big enough to go AROUND the Alnico.

Best regards,

Mike Smith

Logged
Mike Smith

Event Technical Systems

http://www.eventtechnicalsystems.com

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab-actually--
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2005, 05:35:48 pm »

Thanks for the info on the older speakers.  I didn't look at the attachment to the tinsel leads, just cut them out and proceded with the reconing.  Nice to learn a little more history.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Mike McDonald

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2005, 09:17:31 pm »

If you are looking for an alternate driver for the TL606 and would like to stick with the "classics" you could try a Gauss 4583A.  They are available, but get one that's in working condition.  They last a good long time, but original Gauss recone kits are very rare.  Since the 4583 has dual spider, and four inch voice coil, I doubt power handling will be as great an issue either mechanically or electrically.  Another option you have would be to run the TL606 in step down mode or retune the cabinet lower.  This would roll off bass response fiercely, but would help mechanically.  Remember the TL606 was designed for the EVM15L, not the 15B.  The 15B has a slightly lower fs than the 15L, so a slightly lower tuning frequency would probably do the 15B some good without so much negative impact on bass.  The gauss resonant freq. (31hz) is somewhat lower than the EVM 15B (I think), this might help a bit.  Obviously there are more factors than fs in play, but usually (back in the day) when people were blowing up EV and JBL consistently, they replaced the drivers with Gauss.  In my opinion, the electrovoice driver is a very nice sounding efficient machine, but the gauss has the advantage as far as power handling and durability, while keeping the efficiency.  If you're reproducing bass, I think the gauss edges out the EV.  
Over the years, I've had a whack of EVM 12L's and EVM 15L's both OEM and non-OEM.  The "heatsink" is not really a factor in power handling, and I found it just took up volume in the cabinet.  I usually removed the heatsink, and the little round plate that the heatsink held because the plate was a cause of buzzing when it got loose.  In the case of the power handling, most of mine were 100 watts unless they've been reconed.  Reconed, I was told they are 200watt.  I assume this is due to the solution Electrovoice came up with regarding voice coil lead attachment mentioned earlier.
Cheers
Mike
Logged

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
    • http://www.geocities.com/somesoundgreat
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2005, 04:16:07 am »

Thanks, I just took the drivers in for Re-cone (The spec sheet for the 15B claims the TL606 is the optimized cab for the driver).

    Apparently the drivers had been re coned with an extra light cone for "Hi fi" Home theater system or something weird like that.    I thought someone just had them re-coned as 15L's (Guitar 15) I'm getting the standard ridged 15B cone with the ribs installed (Even though the guys at A Brown really wanted me to put in their super pliable hemp cones).  I don't want that extra buckling cone distortion.  

    Mine don't have the magical cooling fins on them like the really old models.  I do have a nifty pair of D130's That I traded for some D140's that I use for guitar.  But uhh I don't think those drivers have any well documented specs for optimizing cabinets.  But My old Pine and Particle board Dual Showman Cab seems to sound fine.  MMM gota love that Piney fresh sound.  That's the vintage way.

Sum

Logged

Mike McDonald

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2005, 06:27:42 am »

Hey Sum
There are sites on the 'net that have thiele-small parameters for pretty much every loudspeaker ever built.  You could likely look up the parameters for your D130's and plug them into a program like WIN ISD and it could spit out the optimized cabinet for you.
Try www.thiele-small.com  This is providing that your D130's are actually coned as D130's not some oddball cone kit.
The nice thing about most of this junk, is if you have a cabinet of specific volume, you can optimize tuning of the box to better suit your driver.  I was always under the impression that the TL606 (a 3.2 cubic foot gross cabinet) was originally designed for the EVM15L.  That doesn't mean you can't any another driver in it, nor does it mean that's the only box you can drop a 15L in.  You can, however, optimize tuning of that TL606 cabinet for whatever driver you decide to put in it by adjusting port length.  You do need the thiele-small parameters for the specific driver you're loading into the cabinet so you can figure out optimum tuning frequency for the box/driver combination.  I don't mean to tell you things you might already know, I just don't know you, so I don't want to spew out a bunch of technical jargon and sound like some kind of techno-goof.
Cheers
Mike
Logged

Elliot Thompson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1573
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2005, 09:02:35 am »

Just for the record.

The EV EVM 15B = Bass Guitar

The EV EVM 15L = Lead Guitar

The EVM 15B is the only speaker being reconed today. They
stop offering recone kits for the 15L due to  being very
weak in the bass section (15L = Lead).

In addition to the 15L being steered towards EV's 4025, &
4050 horns. The EVM 15B will work in either a reflex,
or folded horn, whereas the 15L offers piss poor response
for a reflex.

If you want to stick with JBL, look into the JBL 2226.
The D 130 is what you don't want. The QTS is
lower, than the EVM 15B, and the xmax is non existant
on the D 130.

Go to JBL's website and download their vintage TS PDF
chart. I can tell you there's a 50/50 chance that the
TS Parameters on Thielle Small's site will be correct.

I can't tell you how many incorrect numbers are offered
on that site. And, I'm comparing their numbers to the
original spec sheet from the manufacter.

Best Regards,
Logged
Elliot

Mike Smith

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
    • http://www.eventtechnicalsystems.com/
More EV lore from The Dawn of Time
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2005, 12:41:38 pm »

Hi Sum,

I'm not sure why your 15B spec sheet would say that the TL606 was optimized for the 15B; the old, original EV builder plans that I dug up from my files list the 15L as the recommended driver for both the vented box and 4050/4025 folded horn designs. That was also my recollection after working for EV dealers and using those speakers for many years. The 15L and 15B T/S parameters were close enough that EV used to admit you could use either; I used to know why the 15L was the first choice but that information seems to be lost in the mists of time (I can't remember!). Keep in mind that my building plans and charts are from the late seventies and EV, like every other manufacturer, can change their position to suit whatever engineering or marketing reasons they come up with.

I used to have single and double 15" TL boxes, loaded at various times with 15L and 15B speakers, as well as others. The 15Bs were slightly deeper and "warmer" sounding, and the 15Ls were cleaner but did not have quite the low frequency punch. I do remember achieving the "flower" condition on over-powered 15Ls that Too Tall mentioned, while the 15B would tend to either buckle at the dustcap or shear off completely. We ran EVMs in 4050 and 4025 folded horns too, as well loading them with EV DL15Xs, but that's a whole 'nother ramble...

Regarding the cone appearance, the 15L has (or had) the cone with the rings of light ribs. The 15B cone was smooth (no ribs), a little darker in color, and slightly thicker and more "felted".

Neither of these speakers is going to keep up on low bass with a contemporary JBL 2226, B&C 15TBX100, or Peavey Low Rider 15, but they could work fine in a general-purpose midbass application, or in a musical instrument rig.

That's about enough of that! Good luck.

Mike Smith
Logged
Mike Smith

Event Technical Systems

http://www.eventtechnicalsystems.com

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9010
Re: More EV lore from The Dawn of Time
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2005, 12:52:46 pm »

while the 15B would tend to either buckle at the dustcap or shear off completely.
***********************************************
Whenever I reconed EVM15B's I would dip the neck of the cone into a 50/50 of clear lacquor and thinner.  This would stiffen up the neck where they would buckle (at the dustcap).  This could not be done on the 15L as it would them become to brittle and shatter.  The extra thickness of the 15B cone kept it from becoming too brittle.
Logged
For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.

Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Mike Smith

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
    • http://www.eventtechnicalsystems.com/
Re: More EV lore from The Dawn of Time
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2005, 12:59:51 pm »

Hi Ivan,

That's what EV ended up doing, too. They kept going to stiffer and stiffer lacquer until by the time they got to the 400 watt ProLine 15B, they were applying a coating to the cone apex under the dustcap that was almost like epoxy!

They really rode that 2.5" voice coil horse way, way too long, but they made some do-re-mi so what the heck.

Best regards,

Mike Smith
Logged
Mike Smith

Event Technical Systems

http://www.eventtechnicalsystems.com

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
    • http://www.geocities.com/somesoundgreat
Re: More EV lore from The Dawn of Time
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2005, 01:44:49 pm »

Wow 2.5" voice coil I thought they had 4" coils in those things.

Elliot I'm just using my old D130s for playing electric Guitar so I'm not to worried about their lack of low end heft.

    I have some 2225's that I use in some reflex cabs for part of a modular armature FOH system.  Sometimes I play bass through them but they still roll off pretty quick after 50Hz.  

    The only Thing I've ever played through to get startling results for my 5string bass is a pair of my BT7's.  I doubt there is anything on this earth that is significantly smaller than some bass horn design that can produce those Frequencies with any sort of authority and SPL.  Too bad the Labs subs or BT7's take up so much stage space.  I guess one could use them as drum risers.  But then miking would be a problem.

    Unless some magical Compact Bass transducer is invented,  I think all of us bass players will have to deal with whats convenient and not optimal to our instrument, but if the sound system is good then we can go direct and the FOH guy can supply the audience with the bottom (unless he's one of the guys who turns on the high-pass for every channel).

Anyhow Its all a compromise of some sort.
Sum

Logged

peter.golde

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 252
Re: More EV lore from The Dawn of Time
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2005, 01:54:53 pm »

recone the EV's and load them into a pair of Tuba36 Slims, the two together should beat the Lab for output and extension. Awsome bass rig, or half of one anyway. I know what your talking about, I liked playing through a corner loaded Lab, once you get a taste you dont want to go back to anything less. Twisted Evil
Logged
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer" - Frank Zappa

Mike McDonald

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2005, 07:57:59 pm »

That Bill fitzmaurice guy...
He sells the plans for those Tuba subs.  They seem interesting.  So many seeming sound snobs have tried to belittle those cabinets that I'd like to give them a try just for the heck of it.  I'm burdened with all these "classic" drivers.  If the stupid things would ever fail, I could possibly convince the wife to let me try some of the newfangled speakers Elliot is talking about. I'd drop a set of those Eminence HL10's in one of Bill's Tuba 24's and see how they sound.  It never ceases to amaze me that the big bass cabinets, these days are driven with 10" and 12" woofers.  I once heard that EAW cabinet that runs a pair of 12", and they absolutely blew me away.  For an old man, it's difficult to get my brain around the fact that you don't need a big stack of eighteens to get respectable bass.
I wanted to say thanks for the heads up about EVM15L recones.  I didn't know you could only get the 15b kits.  It's been a while since I reconed them.  The move makes sense, the 15L is a little anaemic in the bottom end.  I still like the sound of it, though.  Also, thanks for the warning about the thiele-small site.  Fortunately, I haven't had to refer to it, since I have my original literature, but the whole idea of the site really turned me on.  I thought it was a great idea in theory...

Sum,
I think if you check the spec sheet for the EVM15B (in my opinion an excellent sounding, durable speaker regardless of voice coil diameter) you will notice that the graphs and spec's and so on list the TL606 cabinet as the cabinet that they ran the tests in.
This has nothing to do with the fact that the cabinet isn't necessarily optimized for that driver.  It just gives you a concept of what to expect with the driver mounted in a cabinet like that.
When you look at many woofer response graphs, they show what response would be like mounted in some standard sized cabinet.  If the driver wasn't mounted in some kind of cabinet, the response curve would look terrible.  You'd likely look at the response curve of the woofer and say "That's not a woofer, it doesn't even have any output below 150hz!"  The cabinet has a huge effect on the bass response of a woofer.

Man! This is a very informative site.
Cheers
Mike
Logged

Elliot Thompson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1573
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2005, 10:46:52 pm »

Hey Mike.

I try to keep whatever information of a product
I own. In the event, the manufacter no longer
offers any documentaion of the item, I don't
need to google the web for answers. I bought
the last 200 watt EVM 15B from a store's
showcase window 9 years ago. As with all Mom
& Pop stores, they keep the original box, &
paperwork.

Hanging around with alot of Vintage Home
Audiophiles in the late 90's, I found out
only 15B recones were being made. So, if
you had the 15L reconed, it would be a 15B

I figure Sumsound is going by TL606 being
used, in the response graphs on the 15B.
Looking at my sheet, its the only box used
unlike the EVX 180 B that offers 6, 8, & 10
cubic feet enclosures.

Yeah. Twelves have become the norm for hornloaded
subs these days. I remember alot of horn designers
always saying xmax, was the limiting factor, why
they needed to use fifteens & eighteens.



Sumsound,

It was only until I seen your post in regards
to the BT 7 I realized, you weren't using EVM
for subs. If you want something ultra low, and,
compact, why don't you checkout the Contrabass.
Usable to 14 Hertz. I think it was servojohn,
who said he was using a pair for his bass.


Best Regards,
Logged
Elliot

[x]

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2005, 08:10:44 pm »

Does anyone have a copy of the EV TL606 cab plans that they can scan and send to me? I have recently come into a number of these cabinets loaded with EVM-15L. They were used as subwoofers in a small touring rig for nearly 20 years before I recieved them. I need some way to figure out what sort of driver I can throw in there when the EV drivers finally crap out. Also if anyone has EVM-15L data sheets as well. I also acquired some EVM12L drivers as part of the deal. One of the EVTL606 is making some mighty fine bass for a friend's bass rig for the time being.
Logged
I've said and written things in the past that I wouldn't throw away in my own trash can for fear that you'd find them. My name is mud.

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
    • http://www.geocities.com/somesoundgreat
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2005, 12:53:47 am »

Rory I have the plans for the EVM 15L (TL606), EVM 12L (TL806) and (TL806Q quad).  As well as TL05 and TL505.  I even got plans for the TL303 30" driver cab!!!  TL5050 12" dual horn and TL4050 15" dual horn.

email me @ antoneb@pacbell.net and I'll scan a copy for you.  
Logged

Antone Atmarama Bajor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
    • http://www.geocities.com/somesoundgreat
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab In demand
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2005, 11:01:19 pm »

Wow there are a lot of people who want a copy of these plans, I get like 2 email a day about them!!

Sum
Logged

Beavis Neck

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: EVM15B's in a EVTL606 Cab
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2005, 11:30:16 am »

I have 4 of these, one pair im very pleased with laoded with fane 15B drivers, these were in there when i bought them.. and a seocnd pair i stumbled upon, which seem to have shorter ports, were loaded with very cheap crap drivers, one of which was blown, but was a 300w driver and had a very nice kick to it, running from aobut 80-180 currently. Am looking at getitng all new drivers across all 4 now, but am pondeirng wether to go witht he fanes still or to change for something else.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.054 seconds with 20 queries.