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[nullset]

Hi,

I'm curious about recording worship.  There are a few scenarios:
1) Recording and giving CDs to band members (so they can hear/improve/etc)
2) Recording and giving away CDs/mp3s on a website
3) Recording and selling CDs.

For now, i'm only thinking about 1 and 2.  So, what's the letter and spirit of the law here?  I assume that under 1, i might technically need to pay ASCAP/BMI/etc, but i probably would slide under the radar and noone would know/care.

For #2 though, it becomes questionable. For #3 i'd definitely have to pay.

So, for you other weekend warriors, what is/isn't legal, how much would i need to pay, and how does one get that arranged?

Thanks for any advice.

ttyl,

--buddy

[Tom Young]

With all due respect, what you are proposing is stealing the intellectual property of someone who owns these songs. This someone has propbably sweated bullits to come up with what they did.  They are not all rich songwriters with mansions in Hollywood Hills, BTW.  And most, if not all, wrote from the Spirit.

I am constantly amazed that it is churches who seem so unable to fathom this form of theft.

It's wrong.  Arrange to pay the royalties.

[Dan Costello]

Tom Young wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 21:18

With all due respect, what you are proposing is stealing the intellectual property of someone who owns these songs. This someone has propbably sweated bullits to come up with what they did.  They are not all rich songwriters with mansions in Hollywood Hills, BTW.  And most, if not all, wrote from the Spirit. I am constantly amazed that it is churches who seem so unable to fathom this form of theft. It's wrong.  Arrange to pay the royalties.

Isn't that what he's asking how to do?

Regarding #1 - is that even infringement? You're not allowed to record yourself playing a cover tune so that you can listen to it?

-Dan.

[Tom Young]

I may have knee-jerk reacted here.  My apologies.  He did use the phrase about being "under the radar", though.

If I was in this position and wanted to do the right thing, I would google on ASCAP, BMI or the phrase "paying music royalties" and look for the places to go to find out about royalty fees and how to pay.

[nullset]

Tom Young wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 07:53

I may have knee-jerk reacted here.  My apologies.  He did use the phrase about being "under the radar", though.

That was in reference to giving the band members CDs.  I'm ASKING how to do it properly in the case of giving away CDs and/or selling them.

I was hoping to get an idea of what it costs to do this sort of thing legally.

I certainly wouldn't go selling CDs without paying royalties.  Esepcially since that could get the organization i'm working with in trouble

so, what's the price range for the song writing royalties?

--buddy

[breese]

You will need to look into the CCLI website. They are/were the clearing house for licensing Christian praise and worship songs. You can check that out here: http://www.ccli.com/

I do know you will have to keep track of everything you play/sing and send them a report annually. This requires a bit of bookkeeping but is worthwhile to ensure your not stealing from soneone else's hard work.

Brian

[Bob Currier]

The basic CCLI license does include the rights to record the worship.  You can find more in the FAQ section of the CCLI
web ste.

By the way, making copies of the artist's recording as a way of
learning a new song is violation of the license and copyright
laws.

--bc

[JasonC]

Everyone should get a CCLI license.  Almost all Christian music is covered there.  As a part of the CCLI, you can set it up so that you can record and SELL a number of copies of your LIVE worship equal to 15% of the total number of people your license is for.  Such as, if you purchase a yearly license for a church that has an attendance of no more than 1000 you can sell up to 150 copies of your recorded worship service each week.   Here is the kicker, you can only charge $3.00 for the recordings and they must of the live worship songs used.

Its important that you list your CCLI number with these recordings as well as any lyrics you reproduce either for display on screens or in a bulletin along with the author of the song and its copyright information.  CCLI also has a lyric service you can subscribe to for only $35 a year.  It allows you to lookup lyrics online and download them for use in your sevices.  These lyrics will contain all the copyright information as well.

[Dan Costello]

BobC wrote on Mon, 09 August 2004 21:47

The basic CCLI license does include the rights to record the worship.  You can find more in the FAQ section of the CCLI web ste. By the way, making copies of the artist's recording as a way of learning a new song is violation of the license and copyright laws. --bc

What about recording the band's performance of the song and distributing it only to the members of the band who performed it? Maybe I misunderstood the OP, but I think that's what he was asking.

Either way, I'm curious.

-Dan.

[Matt Collins]

[quote title=Tom Young wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 20:18]...what you are proposing is stealing the intellectual property of someone who owns these songs....
I am constantly amazed that it is churches who seem so unable to fathom this form of theft.

quote]

Well... to clarify things it isn't theft; it's copyright infringment. There is a BIG difference. With theft you are taking something from the owner and depriving his ownership of it, and with the other you are infringing on his right to distribute and copy it. The two are NOT the same thing.  

[sonilogics]

nullset wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 11:59

Hi, I'm curious about recording worship.  There are a few scenarios: 1) Recording and giving CDs to band members (so they can hear/improve/etc) 2) Recording and giving away CDs/mp3s on a website 3) Recording and selling CDs.

What you are asking for is called a mechanical license - where an entity performs a previously published work and distributes a recording of its performance.  Check out the Harry Fox Agency for additional information on music licensing. (www.hfa.com)

For churches, dealing with this on a per-work basis every week would be a monstrous task.  That's where CCLI comes in.  Their 'Church Copyright License' is a multi-use license for *many* - but not *all* - published Christian works of music.  Their license subscription is not a all-encompassing fire blanket, however, so be mindful of staying compliant if you use it.  

Sure, if you just give it to the band, there's a chance you could do it for free.  BUT, you'd have to write the publisher of each and every work you want to record (preferably under the auspices of an IP attorney) and ask if they will allow you to do so without paying royalties.

Also, in repsonse to our other colleague:  use of IP without licensure withholds from the owners royalties which they are due by law.  Therefore, theft is an accurate depiction since copyright infringement deprives the owner of entitled revenue.

Tom, I understand your frustration.  Friends, as 'pillars' of our communities, our churches should be of a mindset to carry on our ministries - especially the business side of them - with as much integrity as possible.  Yes, we're all human, and we're going to make mistakes.  But we shouldn't try to cut corners because there is no likely chance of being caught.  Those of us who are not on staff at a church but work with many in our vicinity and beyond too often see a mentality of entitlement come from the staff members with whom we are involved - and that mentality leads to unethical business decisions.  The businesses that churches deal with notice that - especially the secular ones.  Let's try to be an example in all areas of our ministries.

[Matt Collins]

sonilogics wrote on Tue, 11 January 2005 11:15

Also, in repsonse to our other colleague:  use of IP without licensure withholds from the owners royalties which they are due by law.  Therefore, theft is an accurate depiction since copyright infringement deprives the owner of entitled revenue.

I am not sure where you reside, but here in the US that isn't quite true.

When you make an unauthorized copy of something you get a copy, and the original owner still has their copy. You haven't taken anything from them. According to Merriam Websters:
"Theft - specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it"

Therefore when you make an unathorized copy it isn't theft, it is copyright infringment. You have infringed on his right to distribute the work according to US law. If you walk into a record store and shoplift a CD, THAT is theft because the owner (store owner) is now deprived of the item in question.

Contrary to popular opinion this is a BIG difference!

[John Roberts {JR}]

We can dance around the semantics but it doesn't make IP theft, or whatever you choose to call it, not wrong.

While we as a culture may tend to value intangible assets differently, it is still property that has value and ownership rights.

In your example; true, you don't "take" anything physical from the other copy holder, you do in fact gain benefit from making a new copy without compensating the the owner of the copyright.

This injury to the copyright holder may appear trivial from the individual infringer's POV, but en masse does deny the artist deserved revenue and such practice has been eroding the economics of the record business for years.

JR

[Matt Collins]

I am not making a moral/ethical judgement on this issue, I just want to point out that it isn't the same as theft.

You call it "eroding the economics of the record business..." while many others (including myself) call it "transforming and modernizing their business model". Unfortunately that side of the industry refused to adapt and change with the times, and thus are now having to scramble to attempt to devise new biz models after technology and culture got ahead of them.

Here are some articles worth reading if you are interested in this topic:
http://wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/sample.html
http://wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/beastie.html
http://wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.01/mpaa.html

There is also another very well written article here on PSW by a guy from down under which is worth a read.

[breese]

Seeing as to how this is the House of Worship forum and this particular post seems to be dealing with a Christian Protestant organization, take something tangible or intangible that is not yours is stealing. That stealing would be a violation of the 10 Commandments.

Does the recording industry need to get with the times? Sure, but just because I think a particular song is powerful and worthy of using at my church does not mean I should deprive the author of their due for the use of the song. These people need to eat somehow too, and last I checked the grocery store takes cash, check or credit card not an IOU or you saying, "I make some really cool music, I'll play a song for this bread".

If you as an artist wish to give your music away that's your thing. Not all artists have the ability to work for free, there are many ways to be paid for the goods or service you provide and that has become evident in the music industry.

Brian

[John Roberts {JR}]

I am encouraged by the recent trend of honest folks downloading music "legally" on the WEB. Maybe there is hope for musicians finally seeing some fruits from low cost web distribution. I have no love lost for the record companies, but that doesn't justify stealing from them.

If you are confused about right and wrong, or know and choose to ignore IP rights, whatever. People have always rationalized questionable behavior. Having company in commission of such, does not make it right.

JR

[Peter Shpak]

Well,  to take a different side of this.  

Now making copies of copy righted music and selling it for profit is illegal and wrong.  But when your talking about distributing worship songs I personally dont see anything wrong with that.  Why?

Well I know a number of song writers and as a song writer, I am personally happy and glad when I hear someone else sing a song that I wrote.  Because this is the best form of flattery to the writer when someone else performs their work.

So if you make copies only for the fact so that other people can learn the songs to sing as worship then I dont see nothing wrong with that.  But if you make copies so that other bands can learn them and put out a cd to make $$ from them then thats not cosher.  


My opinion on things ....

[Mike Sveda]

I am not sure I see anything wrong with sharing a live recording of a worship service for free.  

[Sound Man]

I am a member in a Christian Band.  About a year ago we recorded a Cd to sell.  Most of our material is original, except one song.  It only cost us $16 to make 300 copies through BMI.  I think considering the small cost to be legal and to have a clear conscious is well worth it.  I am sure many would disagree with me on this, but those of us who call ourselves Christians should set ourselves apart, if you have to ask yourself twice if something is wrong, then it probably is.
Just pay the nominal fee and sleep well!!

[john abney]

I'm probably the only non-conservative posting on this forum, so you may think I'll say 'copy all you want.' Wrong. I think I was given a good example early on by my church's minister of music. After singing the song, "Victory in Jesus" at Falls Creek (BGC of OK's summer camp) I suggested we sing it in church. I was told that we couldn't because the song was copyrighted but not in the Baptist Hymnal nor the Broadman. The reason we got away with singing it at camp was because the choir director was Gene Barlett (sp?) who happened to be the songwriter's son. I guess he somehow got permission (Actually we did have the sheet music at camp if I recall.)

I write songs now and I really do appreciate that early lesson in integrity. Having said that, if I have purchased an LP or CD which later becomes damaged, I do believe it is my moral right to copy the content from a friend's legal LP or CD. Now whether that copying is legal or not is another matter.

The Bible says not to steal and it also tells property owners not to reap the corners of fields so that something is left for the gleaners. Are the gleaners then thieves? I say no, but I bet if farmer Fred catches you picking that patented hybrid corn from the corner of his field you'll either get a backside full of buckshot or a ride to jail. I'm just glad gleaning was OK back in Ruth's day. Otherwise we might have missed out on one of the best written books in the Bible (and Jesus might have had a different set of ancestors on his mother's side).

[Matt Collins]

Brian, it's good to hear from ya again! How are things down in Orlando?

I'm gonna be in Tampa in Feb engineering the RealFest http://www.realfest.com/ and then might mosey on over to Carpenter's Home Church and see if I can get on the local crew with TobyMac/Tait/Lampa etc etc on the 13th.

I must withdrawl from this discussion becasue my courses are starting to kill me. I'm taking 18 hours here at http://www.mtsu.edu/~record/MTSU: Mastering, Advanced Tech of Recording, Electronic Music 2, Disk Based Music Prod, Concert Promo + Touring, and Legal Probs of the Rec Ind. It's only the first week and I'm already feeling the pinch for time.  

Feel free to drop me a line via e-mail Matt@UltraSonicDesigns.com

Later!

[Thomas R. Pullen]

from the CCLI website:

Recording Services
One of the rights granted to you with the Church Copyright License is the right to record your worship service. This right includes recording your meditations, preludes, postludes, interludes, fanfares, handbell, vocal and instrumental specials. Please be sure to report these when it is your time to report on the Copy Report.

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