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Author Topic: Digidesign Live console at PLASA  (Read 11624 times)

Karl P(eterson)

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Re:Windows use in Internet infrastructure
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2005, 10:46:26 am »

Dave wrote on Mon, 28 March 2005 02:33

Not to highjack the thread or beat this into the ground any more than it is, but it's an absolute falacity to think Windows has even a minor postion in the operation of the Internet.  In the words of Penn and Teller, that's just bullshit guys.


Remember Dave, Some of us here have much more insight to what goes on in "this world" on a global scale because we are paid to know whats going on and are very good at it. While it is true that Windows does not have a majority share of net ops (that would be laughable) It is true that there is a lot of windows used in different functions, especially supporting (as database and controlling back-ends.)

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Embedded Windows in Cisco IOS?  Are you high?



I find this as ridiculous and hilarious as you do, I didn't say it.

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There is Windows based control software for manipulating various IOS devices, switches, routers, firewalls, etc, but to think that those devices operate on an embedded Windows is incredibly poorly informed.  



Agreed

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To state that Windows is used in a "large presence" for DNS is laughable.



Well, shall we define large presence? I consider 1 or 2 % to be large presence, and from what I have known and seen, it is higher than that, but I doubt it to be over 5%, this is just just talking public facing. With the advent of Active Directory, I would venture to say that one halve plus of the internal company structures run on windows dns exclusively.

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Forty percent Cisco?  It's at least double that.



This surprises a lot of people, and while it could be a little bit higher (50%ish) It isn't a bunch. The reason is you are thinking to small. There is a phenomenal amount of routing going on on soho routers, in intelligent switches, in firewalls and backbone infrastructure. While cisco has a very good share of the "router boxes" market (in the middle, and an okish share in the high end)  they don't begin to compromise the only game in town when it comes to routing as it exists today. You also have to remember, by and large, Cisco doesn't have a great hold on the high class routing market (which in turn counts for a ton of the global traffic). While they do have some good product, there are others with just as good and better equipment, who are better at what they do.

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I've been in both the datacenter hubs in this country (think MAE)  as well as a few other major datacenters and it's difficult to find a non Cisco network device.



I am talking on a global all inclusive scale here. Even you will have to agree that going into two or three datacenters in the country is very far from even a modest sampling of the current environment.

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They do exist but they aren't Windows based.



Agreed, but we (I at least) did not ever mean to try and prove windows was being used as routers

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For two years, PSW was in the same datacenter as MSN.  Guess what networking hardware they used...  Cisco.



This doesn't surprise me based on things I know of microsoft and ciscos relationships

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If Windows based name servers dropped off the Internet tomarrow, very few would notice.



Yes and no. While it is more than true that it would not ever begin to hurt the root hint servers, and that many isps would be left up, countless (and probably a major major section of) businesses, small isps, and yes, even a couple datacenters would be down from it. Now the problem isn't so much the inet infrastructure itself as the endpoints. If the endpoints rely on it, it will still effect end users, doesn't matter how robust the backend is.

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Contrast that to *nix based name servers disappearing tomarrow, the Internet would cease to exist.



And if Windows were to disappear, there would be no-one (to speak of) left to get on the net.

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You guys have heard of the root servers, right?  Them ain't runnin' on Winders.....



haha, absolutely right. Windows couldn't cope with the tps, and wouldn't be the correct tool even if it could

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According to Netcraft, use of Windows servers as a Web/application server is shrinking, not growing.  Use of Apache for Web servers is at 68% and growing with IIS at 20% and shrinking.



This is a trend that has more to do with the current state of affairs on web hosting. Most external web hosting is and has been outsourced. Most of the companies doing this for a living realize that unless (for whatever reason) the site needs to run on windows to work, move it to *nix and apache. The tale for actually usage in business and enterprise is slightly different, with us seeing an increase in installed base due to being used in internal websites and portals. While this doesn't factor into Netcrafts numbers (it simply can't) it must be included in this conversation as it does hold bearing. Globally there are tens if not hundreds of millions of these internal sites, and while windows doesn't have all of them, they do have a large portion.

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The prevelent MTA (mail transfer agent, and the most difficult to configure) is still sendmail, though I prefer Postfix.



I like exim, its all a matter of taste. In any case, I agree, the majority of prevalent MTA's run sendmail. But that is prevalent. There are tens of millions of little exchange/other windows email servers out there serving small and large businesses alike. While very few if any have the "Single point" traffic that *nix MTA's do, you also have to remember that many of those *nix MTA's do very little other than push mail to a windows box (or to another *nix box, which in turn serves up email to windows boxes).

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Take all Exchange servers off the net tomarrow, and some Fortune 1000s wouldn't get their mail.



Neither would many of the Fortune 100s, a majority of 10's, and a large portions of 1's and a significant portion of 0's. While Exchange is far from the only (or best) program out there, because of its integration into a windows environment, and its groupware capabilities, it is widely used and relied upon. Again, what use is the backend if the front end is down?

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Take sendmail (or Postfix or Qmail) off the network tomarrow and pretty much email would stop.



This is probably your weakest argument. While a majority of the worldwide email would vanish (due in large part to spamers being temporarily out of relays), due to the fact that email is a point to point protocol without routing (Technically) everyone using exchange and notes and stalker and any of the bazillion other windows email servers - would all still be fine.

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*nix drives the Internet kids...  Windows isn't even a player.

Dave


While *nix does drive large portions of the Internet, it isn't the only player. We also have to keep in mind, what hell is a bus driver useful for if there ain't no passengers.

*nix needs windows, windows needs *nix. That's how it works for now. Maybe tomorrow it will change, but as for now, its true.

Karl P

Edit, forgot to insert a comment.
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Ray Abbitt

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Re: Digidesign Live console at PLASA
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2005, 12:58:06 pm »

Tom Reid wrote on Sun, 27 March 2005 15:08

Awww, Dave, there's imbedded Windows in things.
Along with Cisco IOS.
Along with embedded Linux (Linksys [now part of Cisco], Tivo, etc.)
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We use BIND, and it runs on *NIX, but recently, we have a need for DDNS which we run on Windows based servers.
Why? BIND can do dynamic dns.
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Sorry I brought it up guys, I don't want an OS war on the sound site.
Too late!
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Re: Digidesign Live console at PLASA
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2005, 12:58:06 pm »


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