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Author Topic: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems  (Read 9351 times)

Aaron J. Percy

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any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« on: March 22, 2005, 02:54:43 PM »

Hello all, I am interested in these elctronic variable acoustic systems such as the one by LCS and Yamaha.  If anyone has any firsthand info to share that would be great.
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Peace,  Aaron

Tom Young

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2005, 08:17:32 AM »

I have considerable experience with these.

What do you want to know ?
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Aaron J. Percy

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2005, 10:19:29 AM »

I am interested in your opinion of the believability of the reverb tail.  I am a recording engineer and am used to having full control at my fingertips, these systems seem like another tool I could use to enhance the experience at my church.  Our current room does not function well for organ and choral music, hand-bells, or as a space for the "rock" band of our contemporary service.  I am interested in possibly designing my own system but I am having a difficult time finding information about the actual setup of the mic/speaker matrix, the formulas used to devise the DSP settings.  I realize that this a big part of the system and would be considered a secret, but any info you might have in regard to this would further my understanding.  Thanks
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Tom Young

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2005, 02:16:33 PM »

I recommend that you read articles, papers and promo by the folks at Jaffe Holden Acoustics, LARES Associates, SIAP, Yamaha, LCS and 1-2 others I cannot immediately recall but who have pioneered or developed such systems.

In particular the papers by David Greisinger (LARES) are thorough and fascinating.

I know of one contracting firm in the southeastern US who sell their own version of a LCS system (to churches) which is scaled back and they say it works quite well.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Aaron J. Percy

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2005, 02:57:19 PM »

Mr. Young,
  Thanks for your help.  I have been reading articles and reviews but was not aware of Jaffe Holden Acoustics, LARES Associates, and SIAP.  I also would be interested in the company you mentioned that is in the contracting firm in the southeastern US you mentioned.  
   Also, I was snooping around and it sounds like you have a cool job!  Thanks again for your help.
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Tom Young

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2005, 03:36:57 PM »

Where are you located ?

Maybe I can point you to an installed electronic enhancement system.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Ivan Beaver

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2005, 07:39:13 PM »

I assume that the firm Tom is talking about is the company I work for dB Audio & Video.  We have (as far as we know) the only portable VRAS system in the world.  We can set it up in a couple of hours.  It takes the VRAS guys a day or two to set up a demo.  The VRAS (LCS) is probably the most realistic system out there.  It does not use time variance in which you can hear the tails moving around if you listen carefully.  The demo we have would make a great recording room.

The knock off we sometimes use (when budget is a problem) is a system that I came up with and works very well.  It can do several things the VRAS cannot.  I am not trying to fool Europian acousticians (just a bunch of Southern Baptists-HAHA).  We have used my system to "copy" the sound of the large sanctuary into the choir room, so the choir feels like they are signing in the main room.

I will say this-there is a learning curve and I am still very much in it (as far as things you should and should not do).  But I am getting better all the time.

One of the biggest things about using a variable rooms system is the room itself.  It needs to be very dry (RT60 around .5-.7 Sec) and totally free of flutter echo.  This is great for speech, but really allows the system to work to its full potential when doing choral or classical or organ music.  It is not cheap to do right, but the results are worth it.

It is my belief that in a few years most venues will be using a system of some sort, when the operators realize that the rooms can have "perfect acoustics" for a variety of types of performances.  Right now the term perfect acoustics applies to one type of performance-what is perfect for speech is lousy for an organ and vice versa.  In the future you will be able to have a conferance during the day and an organ recital at night and every body will be happy, and the owner has now put paying seats in his venue twice in a single day.  When this starts to happen, the "high" price tag will seem small in a very short time period.

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio and Video

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Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?

Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs

Tom Young

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 07:52:03 PM »

Yes, Ivan: you are the guys I had in mind.

I agree with all of your points and observations. However, I do not know whether I would find VRAS superior to LARES because I haven't heard VRAS (yet).  LARES is pretty difficult to beat, IMHO.

Guess I need to find a way down to Georgia, and soon. Lots going on with you guys.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com

Al Zara

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2005, 08:09:46 PM »

Hey Tom -
I just read the David Griesinger paper & it was very interesting,
Can something like that be used to undo reverb, or perhaps null reverb?
For instance filling the room or portions of the room with the inverse of what you don't want?
Al -
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Tom Young

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Re: any input about electronic variable acoustic systems
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 04:20:40 AM »

This is somewhat akin to the thread on the LAB section here a PSW titled: "Introducing.... The Cancelling Fader Mode"

Answer: no

In order to cancel (or even reduce) acoustic energy you need to achieve the correct phase response with one source versus the other at all points in space and for all frequencies. This is impossible.  You can position 2 ldspkrs and phase-align them so that at one frequency and at one point in space they cancel. At other frequencies around (and at harmoics of) the center frequency there will be varying degrees of reduction, but not complete cancellation. And there will be points and frequencies where they interfere constructively, becoming louder. Likewise, as you move to another point in space the cancellation (and addition) is incomplete and varies wth position and frequency.

Noise cancellation is achieved to a degree in headphones and in cars (the few that have noise cancelling systems) because the acoustic space is so small and the position of the listener's ears is stationary relative to the noise source and the noise-cancelling transducers.  In cars you are reducing mostly engine and muffler noise, plus some road noise (all low freq's). The outside HF's have been reduced by the cabin walls.  
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
www.dbspl.com
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