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Author Topic: The Tuba 36 debuts  (Read 31427 times)

Jim York

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Re: Designs
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2005, 10:26:35 PM »

Almost well said. In fact guy named Bill is quite well known in the professional loudspeaker designer community, has long been recognized as one of the most innovative designers around, especially in the field of horns. Guy named Dr. Bruce Edgar used to be head honcho in the horn field at Speaker Builder (now audioXpress) Magazine; six years ago guy named Bill took over his position on magazine masthead, Dr. Bruce Edgar hasn't been published since. Guy named Bill has been published over 30 times, was made full member of Audio Engineering Society as result. Guy named Craig has done exactly what in the field of loudspeaker design? Please list bibliography and design accomplishments. Enquiring minds want to know.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Designs
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2005, 11:29:24 PM »

Come on, this is a pro forum, and Craig is trying to clue you about  why your posts are being received poorly.

If you want to do a Bill vs. Tom list of accomplishments I'm ready to read up. If writing for Ed Dell's hobby speaker magazine and joining the AES is you best shot you need to take your tone down a notch.

I mean no disrespect to you or your man Bill... I don't know either of you. I do know Craig and his man Tom from their years of participation here and they are solid citizens.


JR

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Mr.Nightro

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Re: The Tuba 36 debuts
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2005, 02:09:33 AM »

Honestly guys, there is no need for this argument. You don't see the two designers at each other’s throats saying my design is better then yours nor was this thread started as or intended as that. BOTH designs are good in their respective uses & both are well-accomplished designers with long lists of credentials. As I have stated before there have been MANY other sub designs that have been discussed on this board that fall WELL short of the Labhorn yet they go unchallenged so why does this discussion ALWAYS turn to a my toy is better then your toy topic EVERYTIME the Tubas are mentioned here? I still feel both designs have their place & until you see the two designers having this discussion (keep in mind there has only been a side by side graph comparison as a benchmark done thus far with just ONE of Bills designs to the Labhorn & not a "see mines is better" claim) & not just merely a few builders/users stating what good results they have had using either products. There shall be a subwoofer shootout in a few months & all speculations over what is the better design should be dropped until after this comparison has been tested & published. Even after such time just keep in mind that there has not been a mines is better then yours claim by EITHER designer. One thing that I have always smiled at is when you have the AVERAGE listener at a concert (of which there are more times then not 90% of) state how good a concert was & how good the sound was but you will ALWAYS have that one professional out there that knows what to listen for that was say "Hey, the audio was awful because of such & such" ( I am guilty of this myself but after thinking about it for a minute I have a new view on it. As long as the General public didn't notice that fault then why bother bring it up). Keep in mind it's the average listener that this whole industry is about & if it's good enough to please them then it's good enough (I am not condoning outright bad audio). If I am rambling on I am sorry because it's 3:15am n the morning here I have had NO sleep because I am fighting the flu & I am hopped up on medicine at present so you can dismiss this whole speech to that but then there may be a bit of logic SOMEWHERE in here ;o).
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Elliot Thompson

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Re: The Tuba 36 debuts
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2005, 07:10:18 AM »

Mr. Nightro

I hear what you are saying to a degree.

However, keep in mind the average listner, owns
a mini system in their homes. So, anything that
sounds better than that will be incredible to
them  Laughing

There a some of us, that want it above average.
We are our worst critic, and strive constantly
to sound better, than previous gigs.

Those are the guys (including myself) that need
to know the numbers.

Check out the post regarding "Subs Deploying,
And The Round". The response alone, should tell
you, this forum, is about optimising the sound
with no compromise.

While I do understand the nature of the Tuba,
I agree 100% with JR that this is a pro audio
forum. One of the only forums on the
net, that can get into the specifics, regarding
pro audio.

If the specifics are not explained, or, measured,
then there will be alot of disgruntal Labsters
speaking their mind.

The happy users of the Tuba are estatic, and, want
to share their good fortune. However, they don't
have the experience to get into the specifics.

So, when the benefit of doubt is addressed, and,
people ask the designer, the answers are not given.

With that being said. Say, you wanted to build
eight of these boxes, and, needed to know how
would they respond under those conditions. Would
you be willing to risk the time and effort of
building so many boxes, not getting a ballpark
estimate on the performance?

Hopefully someone will bring four Tubas to the
Subwoofer Shootout in Texas, so all the praising
can be justified. Cool

Best Regards,  


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Elliot

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Re: The Tuba 36 debuts
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2005, 08:48:37 AM »

Craig left out the fact that Bill Fitzmaurice also wrote and published a book called "Loudspeakers for Musicians". It's been out for quite a while, ever since I first began in DIY hi-fi. He's also got several AudioXPress magazine articles. I read the one he did when he first came out with the Tuba design, and that's where I learned a very large amount of what I know about why things are the way they are in the world of horn design. The two articles by Bill that I have read (World's smallest folded horn, and A Horn that Breaks all the Rules) were not in the vein of, "Hey, dudes, I built this, and you can too. It's loud." Instead, they discuss things like throat reactance, how Qts of the driver affects the size of the rear chamber, what happens when the horn leaves off and the driver is left to fend for itself in direct radiator mode, etc.
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Craig Leerman

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Re: The Tuba 36 debuts
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2005, 12:41:21 PM »

Quote:

 Craig left out the fact that Bill Fitzmaurice also wrote and published a book called "Loudspeakers for Musicians"  


I was not trying to slight Bill's acomplishments.  I was simply trying to point out how both designers are targeting an audience with different perspectives and expectations.  The title of Bill's book seems to reinforce my point!

Also, the fact that I don't know much about Bill also reinforces my point. He moves in different circles than the pro audio crowd. Thats like dropping the name of John Atkinson. If you are an audiophile or reader of Stereophile magazine, you instantly recognise John, if not, you have no idea how popular and well known he is in those circles. (and a great guy to boot!)

Or, if you are not in the live audio community, you would probably not know guys named Robert Scovill, Stan Miller, Dave Rat, Gunji Patterson, or even a guy named Craig!  

Like my Technics 1200 example.  More club DJs and pro DJs use the 1200 more than all other turntables combined.  I'm not saying that the Technics is a BAD turntable, just that audiophiles expect or require different things from their turntable.  In fact, I own a 1200 on my stereo, but I wouldn't expect an audiophile to sing its praises, no more than I would expect the owner of a high end sound company to sing the praises of Peavey, even though Peavey has quality products and a dedicated following in many levels of production.

Craig
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I'm so old, when I was doing FOH for Tommy Dorsey, to balance out the horn section I would slide their chairs downstage and upstage to mix!


Steve Shafer

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Argument to the man not to the issue
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2005, 02:45:13 PM »

This has nothing to do with Craig's credentials or lack there of. Before I go on, I want to state for the record, I have purchased some of Bill's Tuba plans, and one of the reasons I have not made saw dust is the lack of reliable and repeatable performance data on his designs.  

If "Blades" were doing a side by side A/B with a Bassmaxx B1, a Martin WXX, an EAW KF900 and made the same comments, I would give his enthusiastic words and subjective observations a bit more credibility.  However, as it stands, I have no idea what his point of reference is.  For example, I thought I liked my JBL 4719x subs until I mixed on a rig with Bassmaxx B1's.  What a night and day difference!!

This is an issue of the instant credibility of Tom Danley who designed the Lab Sub which has been tested and scrutinized by some very talented people with a great deal of experience and expertise in the real world of pro audio.  Furthermore, the Lab Sub has repeatedly been subjected to some very sophisticated analysis and it performs very very well.  Tom's DIY Lab Subs have been built and used in various countries and as long as the build quality is good, the boxes perform very well and are very affordable in comparison to what the big names charge

Without good testing and solid data, the whole comparison thing becomes too subjective to make any real life comparisons or assessments of what Blades Tubas will do

I hope that the tubas show up against some of the known big league horn loaded sub boxes ie bassmaxx, Lab Sub, Turbosound, Martin, and EAW.  Then lets get some real good analysis and do some side by side comparisons.  If the Tubas hold their own, i am sure Bill's revenue from his plans will go up considerably.  

So back to the point, I don't see why there is any argument towards Craig.  It might surprise you to learn more about him before you "call him out" like you did.  

If I had to risk the investment of time, money, and the possiblity that what i end up with is going to be a good pro quality proven product, I am going to do with the Tom Danley box.

my .02

steves

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Mr.Nightro

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Re: Argument to the man not to the issue
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2005, 03:34:07 PM »

Stevesb65 wrote on Tue, 25 January 2005 19:45

This has nothing to do with Craig's credentials or lack there of. Before I go on, I want to state for the record, I have purchased some of Bill's Tuba plans, and one of the reasons I have not made saw dust is the lack of reliable and repeatable performance data on his designs.  

If "Blades" were doing a side by side A/B with a Bassmaxx B1, a Martin WXX, an EAW KF900 and made the same comments, I would give his enthusiastic words and subjective observations a bit more credibility.  However, as it stands, I have no idea what his point of reference is.  For example, I thought I liked my JBL 4719x subs until I mixed on a rig with Bassmaxx B1's.  What a night and day difference!!

This is an issue of the instant credibility of Tom Danley who designed the Lab Sub which has been tested and scrutinized by some very talented people with a great deal of experience and expertise in the real world of pro audio.  Furthermore, the Lab Sub has repeatedly been subjected to some very sophisticated analysis and it performs very very well.  Tom's DIY Lab Subs have been built and used in various countries and as long as the build quality is good, the boxes perform very well and are very affordable in comparison to what the big names charge

Without good testing and solid data, the whole comparison thing becomes too subjective to make any real life comparisons or assessments of what Blades Tubas will do

I hope that the tubas show up against some of the known big league horn loaded sub boxes ie bassmaxx, Lab Sub, Turbosound, Martin, and EAW.  Then lets get some real good analysis and do some side by side comparisons.  If the Tubas hold their own, i am sure Bill's revenue from his plans will go up considerably.  

So back to the point, I don't see why there is any argument towards Craig.  It might surprise you to learn more about him before you "call him out" like you did.  

If I had to risk the investment of time, money, and the possiblity that what i end up with is going to be a good pro quality proven product, I am going to do with the Tom Danley box.

my .02

steves




Who ever said that the Tubas where better then bassmaxx, Lab Sub, Turbosound, Martin, or EAW? All I have read was someone who took the time to not just buy the plans but to build them & was happy with the results. Here are a bunch of guys going on the defensive over a topic that wasn't meant to be offensive but just to let it be known that he liked what he took the time & effort to build. SO lets stop arguing & just except that this person is happy with his investment, there are other issues that would merit this kind of attention rather then running off making a big deal over nothing. If some guy came on here & stated he just built a W bin design from the 80's that he used at a gig after which he & his clients where happy with the results who are we to jump on him & say "Well it's not better then this" or "It's not better then that”. I would see the argument if he came here & posted "I just built a sub that would blow away anything else out there" but no all that was stated was he was happy with his new sub... LIGHTEN UP GUYS.... You want numbers ok, fine wait until after the upcoming sub shootout then you will see where the Tuba family sits in the subwoofer food chain.
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blades976

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Re: Designs
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2005, 05:56:30 PM »

[quote title=Craig Leerman wrote on Mon, 24 January 2005 23:45]
Quote:



I'm not sure what you mean by "It is all about entertainment"




Merely that if you are part of the production, either as a performer or behind the scenes, you are helping to deliver an entertainment product to those who pay to be there, or perhaps you just do it to amuse yourself and get free beer.  In either case, being unique and having something different to offer is the key to being able to stand out and get noticed, whether for profit or self gratification; at least that is how I look at it.  


[quote title=Craig Leerman wrote on Mon, 24 January 2005 23:45]
Quote:



Here is what I want for my next Home stereo (with additional LABS under the floor)  Still trying to talk the wife into it!  hehehe

index.php/fa/1010/0/


Try selling the idea to her as an "interactive audio sculpture"  Very Happy and perhaps *gasp* let her pick out a color to paint the horns.

So, about this whole tuba thing.  Supposing I were to buy an RTA program and a mic that is worth a damn for my PC, how much pain would I be inflicting on my wallet?  Recommendations?  

This can serve as insurance if something comes up or I can't get my truck in proper working order before the shootout.

Best case scenario.

I test and measure the tuba36's, and possibly the tuba30 before I go to the shootout and I compare to the results of measurement equipment there.  This would help lend credibility (for better or worse) to the response of the cabinet and give me a solid reference to work from.

Second best scenario

I go to the shootout to get the cabinet's performance measured.  Results would be posted after the shootout.  A bit of a wait.

Worst case scenario.  

I can't make it to the shootout but I test and measure the tuba's and post the results as soon as I get the RTA program figured out.  The results could be prone to error and possibly not believed at all but it is something more than a subjective opinion.

Bonus scenario.

I get a high output dual driver tuba36 (or possibly larger) built  and delivered to the event.  Not likely but if I run into some extra cash it is possible.  

In any case, I am just as curious as to what a response graph of the larger tubas will look like as everyone else.  I am not here to say what is better, just that open mindedness, and economy can have very nice results in pro sound.  

Until next time

John
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ChainedDragon

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Re: Designs
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2005, 06:20:01 PM »

[quote title=blades976 wrote on Tue, 25 January 2005 17:56][quote title=Craig Leerman wrote on Mon, 24 January 2005 23:45]
Quote:



So, about this whole tuba thing.  Supposing I were to buy an RTA program and a mic that is worth a damn for my PC, how much pain would I be inflicting on my wallet?  Recommendations?  


John



http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/audio.html

is a start....
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