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[Dave Potter]

I joined a samba drum band after seeing them after a local festival.  The band is due to play again this year. Roughly 50 drummers are joined by singers and plus bass and guitar.  The problem is that after last year the band was warned about volume.  The organizers have reduced the sound limits again this year.  Its looks like we could be banned for good.

It's not like the rest of the festival doesn't make use of quite a large sound rig.  Its just seems that the band is too loud.  Suggestions?

[[email protected]]

We'd need more detail to be much help...

What's the location like?
What's the SPL limit and weighting?
What's the normal SPL of the band playing?
and how much drum shielding do you have?

[Dave Potter]

The event is held on a purpose build stage in a local park.  I don't know the SPL limits or weighting. However there is no point debating whether the limits are reasonable or not.   We just need to be less.
We don't have drum screens.  I was thinking about suggesting that but since the whole band is drummers it would need a pretty big screen.

[[email protected]]

Again more specifics will help...is there a nearby residence that is the reason for the ordinance? What is the limit and how far away is the measurement taken? How large is the concert...audience of thousands/dozens?

Without having the spl limit, most everything said here will be pure conjecture.

Without being speculative...

Drums are the very powerful acoustic emitters, and even a single drum can generate extreme SPLs - Well in excess of many park SPLs. If one puts 5 players, possibly in your case twenty, on a single part there will be very significant summation of acoustic energy. And this is whether or not you turn on the mixing console.

I think there are three meaningful ways to be quieter:

The first is for the drummers to play less forcefully or use smaller sticks. It has the potential to reduce the generated SPL.

Now that we've all had a good laugh, the second is to shield as completely as possible the direction in which the SPL reading will be taken. Depending on the actual SPL limit and distance to the measurement you might need 6' tall plexi, a choral sound shell, or you might need to build a freeway style sound wall, or an indoor venue, to achieve the necessary level.

Third, for you less players equals a quieter source. I'm sure there's a great reason why you have 50 drummers, but perhaps you can get the gig and drastically cut the transport costs by offering to pare down the scale of the percussion section.

[Kevin Ballard]

Remember that drums were developed to keep soldiers together whilst manovering on the battlefield. They are intended to be loud and carry great distances. So you have to engineer that acoustic sound down in volume, small sticks, padded skins or quieter heads. Half the number of players? Maybe choriograph so you're all on stage but drop out in large numbers in rotation.   

[Jordan Wolf]

Chopsticks...lots and lots of chopsticks...

I have always been most impressed by drummers who can play softly, yet articulately.  Maybe find out if there are any drummers that the others follow, and get them to make sure no one drummer is louder than they are (this also means keeping them in-check).

It's sort of similar to hand-clapping in choirs (saw an a Capella show tonight)...if everyone claps "normally", it sounds awful because there's too much going on ad the loudest sound at the mic is now the clapping, not the singing.  If, however, everyone claps softly, the words are still intelligible and the clapping effect is more balanced with the music.

Fix it at the source, which may be harder since you are new to the group.  A room/area mic recording might be handy to reveal imbalances in the group.

[George Friedman-Jimenez]

Samba is street carnival music, and samba schools have been entertaining millions of people every year since before electrons were discovered. Either the festival wants carnival music or they don't. Part of the excitement is total immersion in sound with everyone dancing and playing at a high energy level. That is not going to happen when the drummers hold back all the time. Assuming you have highly disciplined drummers who CAN play soft, and they are capable of playing tight, tasty and soft, it just won't make the samba experience if they ALWAYS have to play soft. We have a very similar experience playing Afrocuban rumba and comparsa in NYC, both indoors and outdoors.
One thing I have noticed, however, is when the really good drummers are playing, talking and making music with the drums, cops are less likely to come. When someone is off time or not playing well, the rhythm doesn't sound tight and musical, that is when the cops tend to come. People tend to complain about music they don't like, more so than fantastic music that is just too loud. So if any of your 50 drummers can't hold perfect time or plays off the clave, kick them out of the performances and let them come to rehearsals until they perfect their timing and can play in rhythmic harmony with the best drummers.

[Dave Potter]

Well, just to round off the thread.  The band got dumped from the gig.  The local council imposed a sound limit of 60db at the boundary which for a festival with 7 stages is tough enough. 
The band has to be around 50 people because it is a community group which grew out of the festival, and while some musicians are getter than others, leaving any out would be unpollitic.  "Playing better" is also irrelevant since it assumes negotiation, or flexibility, or tasteful choice on behalf of the organizers.  There is none to be had.  The organizers hands are tied by the council.  Its the same council which controls Knebworth!!

Never mind.  We took another event a few miles down the road, which is a parade rather than a stage show but what the heck.

[George Friedman-Jimenez]

60 dB is great, until a car drives by or somebody sneezes and you go over the limit. That limit is ridiculous and unachievable. In my experience, authorities go out of their way to make ridiculous limits like that when they or those they obey don't like the content, form or message of the music. When it comes to African based drumming, this problem goes back to slave days when drums were banned because they were (correctly) perceived by the slave owners to be tools of liberation and passing on of a culture of resistance against slavery.

As I said before, another factor may be the skills and discipline of the drummers. I haven't heard your group, but it is certainly possible for 50 drummers to play tight, musical, and not too loud. Back in the early 80s I used to play with Guilherme Franco and Pe de Boi samba school in NYC. We sometimes had 10 surdos and 20 other drums in a basement of a building on Morton St. in the West Village. He taught us to play on time and to play at a comfortable volume with dynamics, and didn't tolerate people playing off time or too loud. People would get kicked out or told to stop playing every rehearsal. They usually came back the next time and played better, some never learned to play in time and dropped out. Packed into a basement like that, we were forced to play soft, but we kept the samba feeling and it sounded good. Without that kind of discipline it is very easy to get sloppy and sound bad, especially from a distance, and especially if you are playing loud. Someone playing off time in a samba group is like someone playing off key in a symphony orchestra, it ruins the overall sound for everyone and should not be tolerated, politic or not.

Good luck with the parade gig. That is closer to what a samba group is really for, and should be no problem as long as people can hold good time while marching.

[Nick Pignetti]

Just wanted to share this for everyone that mocks drummers for playing too loud.
There are talented percussionists that know how to play piano.

I started as a percussionist... one of the groups I toured with.
Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/bhJFFin0V6g

[George Friedman-Jimenez]

Nice one, Nick. Tight, disciplined, perfect timing, great dynamics from soft to moderately loud, nice arrangement. No cops in sight. I would love to hear them improvise.

[John Livings]

Just wanted to share this for everyone that mocks drummers for playing too loud.
There are talented percussionists that know how to play piano.

I started as a percussionist... one of the groups I toured with.
Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/bhJFFin0V6g

Love Drummers in control, anyone can play Loud,  Skill is required to Play soft with others.

Think "Tommy Lee goes to College".

Regards,  John

[Nick Pignetti]

Certainly not wanting to get off topic here, but I'm glad you enjoyed this.
This excerpt was actually a warm up for a show- the actual field show that this excerpt is from can be seen here (its basically arts meets athleticism):
http://youtu.be/hS4gAqCzlLo

7:30 starts where the first clip I posted is from. 9:00 out is really cool. Of course I enjoy the entire show... The end gives you an idea of how big (and well-attended) these shows are. Since this time (2002) Sound reinforcement has been introduced into these programs to add yet another element.

Extremely talented group of musicians- though this lifestyle is grueling. Months of rehearsal prior to going on the road, then 16 hour rehearsal days with 3-5 shows per week for 12 weeks. I was 16 at the time. Unfortunately, it's for youth only and limited to those under 21. However it is considered the most professional and talented version of the circuit. (It's televised on ESPN, tickets are sold, it generates tons of revenue etc. Just like a concert) After 21, participants are no longer eligible. Most definitely sucks that if you aren't skilled to achieve this level of performance prior to 21 you cannot participate, but I think that's what makes it as polished as it is.

A few more links if you like:
http://youtu.be/hS4gAqCzlLo
Even rehearsals are intense: http://youtu.be/hS4gAqCzlLo


Back to the OP:

I understand for inclusion reasons you cannot cut down on the size of the section. While physics might suggest smaller/lighter implements, you'd actually probably be better off with the control gained from using something heavier and working on a softer approach to the instrument.

Re-reading I'm sorry to hear you lost this show, but glad you picked something else up. Best of luck to you, and if you ever want any advice or help in relation to achieving any goals for your ensemble, please feel free to private message me.

Best Wishes,
Nick

[Charlie Zureki]

Remember that drums were developed to keep soldiers together whilst manovering on the battlefield. 

     Really?    I thought Drums were like knives, rope, boats, or...etc....in that no one is certain exactly who first used/invented them....

   Hammer

[Jason Tubbs]

60 dB is great, until a car drives by or somebody sneezes and you go over the limit.

He said it was 60dB at the festival boundary, which (depending on the size of the grounds and proximity of the stages to the boundary) isn't TOO outrageous.  The last time I had to deal with it, the limit in NYC was 45-55 dBA at the property line, depending on the time of day.  Which is, of course, far below the ambient levels typically experienced at ANY time of day in NYC.

jt

[Dave Potter]

Extremely talented group of musicians- though this lifestyle is grueling. Months of rehearsal prior to going on the road, then 16 hour rehearsal days with 3-5 shows per week for 12 weeks.

That's nice. but what we are talking about is a low budget community band, most of which has full time jobs and families. with limited time and practice resources. .... and then flying guys in from Rio with one day's rehearsal.
The result is fun.
http://youtu.be/CXZnPdtT9Mw

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