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Author Topic: Mini LAB (hifi) (building right now; pics inside)  (Read 11482 times)

michiel

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Mini LAB (hifi) (building right now; pics inside)
« on: December 12, 2004, 08:12:12 am »

Sorry for my bad english... Embarassed

Recently i designed a small version of the LAB horn. The original LAB is al bit to big for my 10 m^2 room so i wanted to design a smaller horn.
The driver i used is the LAB 12 (one per cabinet). But 2 visaton GF 200 will do +/- the same (i have 2 of these drivers).
The folding is simular to the punisher. Easy to build.

See the pdf file for simulations and drawing. I think this might be a verry nice subwoofer for extreem HT, or a full horn loaded hifi set up.
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Johan Rademakers

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2004, 09:07:46 am »

Hi Michiel,

Is there any forum out there where I won't be seeing you? Rolling Eyes

How about the cone excursion/SPL max?

Cheers
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2004, 09:46:56 am »

Hahaha!!! Laughing I dont know, if you find one tell me.  Twisted Evil Razz

The LAB 12 driver hits its xmax @ 200 watt @ 30 Hz with an spl of 130 dB (corner loading). Above 35 Hz the driver can take 1000 watt and gives an spl of +/- 136 dB. But i dont think you will go that loud at home. I have had 115 + dB in a small room, and thats no fun. 105-110 is good for me as max spl for home use, normaly i dont get above 100 dB while listening music.

This horn isn't designed for a high spl, just for a low f3 en flat respone. I think this sub will do a quite good job at home, but not in the field compared to other subs. I'm plannig to build the horn with 2 GF 200's, and use this in a horn loaded hifi system with a straigth(???) 15" 100 Hz horn for mid/base or 15" BPH(wich i have already).
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Michael_Elliston¶

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2004, 10:33:09 pm »

Very nice.
AJ horn comes up close to HORNRESP in many ways but slight differences still occur.

I too enjoy the easy expansion unlike the labhorn with complicated mitres.

Im doing a similar thing with my jbl2226-Except its slightly larger. The rear chamber must be quite large for this woofer.(but I already own it)

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sbk1/jbl/34hz.PNG
Cheers!
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2004, 12:42:12 am »

There are some things diffrent in my design. I use a hyperbolic contour and in my design throat = SD. Wich is something i dont see often with bass horns.
I think these factors will give me the clean sound i want. A horn with a large throat will ben less efficient because there is no compression. But with the larger throat the horn can be made a little shorter and give the same f3.

I think your design is for PA use??! Mine is not, and that makes a big difference.

Why didn't you fold the horn like the LABhorn (punisher/crusher)?? Is this because of the verry large rear camber? I think a folden as the labhorn will work better than the folding you used...
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Peter Morris

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2004, 01:49:12 am »

Hi Mike

FWIW your “horn folds” are very similar to the horn I suggested below.  The difference was the use of 2 x 12 and area where the speaker was located was horizontal to increase the volume in front of the speaker to minimize the cone excursion at 42hz as a single box and smooth out the response, The only problem is being able to get the Ciare drivers in this part of the world.

BTW thanks for your comments about AJHorn and Hornresp.

Peter
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Michael_Elliston¶

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2004, 05:31:17 am »

Quote:

Why didn't you fold the horn like the LABhorn (punisher/crusher)?? Is this because of the verry large rear camber? I think a folden as the labhorn will work better than the folding you used...

Its impossible -the jbl requires ~60litre rear chamber,with this 34hz horn flare.(note that with higher frequency horn it doesnt require as much rear chamber)

Its meant for home usage(very soon to be built for my small flat),however I do have other plans for 42hz and 50hz,its easy enough-but for those midbass frequencies Id use a high performance 12" when possible to save space.

Interesting idea with Sd=St and hyperbolic horn.Do you have a website?


When you build your horn subwoofer,It would be great if you could measure it with praxis/smaart in order to see distortion levels etc!

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sbk1/sys.htm

Cheers!
Mike.e
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2004, 11:02:49 am »

mike_nz wrote on Mon, 13 December 2004 10:31


Its impossible -the jbl requires ~60litre rear chamber,with this 34hz horn flare.(note that with higher frequency horn it doesnt require as much rear chamber)

Its meant for home usage(very soon to be built for my small flat),however I do have other plans for 42hz and 50hz,its easy enough-but for those midbass frequencies Id use a high performance 12" when possible to save space.

Interesting idea with Sd=St and hyperbolic horn.Do you have a website?


When you build your horn subwoofer,It would be great if you could measure it with praxis/smaart in order to see distortion levels etc!




I dont have a website, only an msngroup with some pictures from other cabinets i built. (if you are interested: http://groups.msn.com/luidsprekers/surf.msnw?albumlist=2 )

For the mid/bass i use a 15" bandpass horn. For now a PA design wich i think isn't optimal. This design also isn't optimized (is this the right word?) for the driver. The next mid/bass cabinet will be a bandpass horn special for hifi use, or a square 100 Hz front loaded horn (like the edgarhorn 100 system). Both 15" with the B&C 15PL40.


I'm planning to build the 'mini LAB' verry soon, not with the lab12 driver but with 2 gf 200's wich i al ready have. At this moment i'm working on the drawing, when i have some money to buy the wood, i will begin. Maybe end of this week...
I could measure with smaart....
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Michael_Elliston¶

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2004, 11:01:30 pm »

Very good!
Yes optimise is the word.

at speakerplans.com 'forum' they are designing a kick horn ,from 70hz -300hz

Cheers
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2004, 09:17:10 am »

I just looked at the speakerplans forum, but i don't think thats the right way for a high quality and high efficient hifi mid/bass cab. The design of the kickhorn is focused on out put, as i sad i wont need that kind of out put fore home usage.
I'm simulation a straight 100 Hz horn with the 15PL40, pure for hifi usage... And still the simulation thinks i can get over 130 dB with one cab with just 600 watts (half space) 100> Hz.

But, this can get a little big (over 350 liter per cabinet and i need 2). The bandpass horn i designed a half year ago (and never build Confused)  is smaller, and has an lower f3 (60 Hz) but not the kind of efficiency like the bigger 100 Hz horn.
I dont know wich will preform better, i think a straight horn will sound better, but will the 100 Hz be low enough? I think i have to go down to 80 Hz minimun.

First i'm going to build the mini lab, and then i can find out what the max x over point will be. I have al ready a bandpass horn so i can do some tests.
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Michael_Elliston¶

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2004, 10:37:20 pm »

If you had stereo subwoofers which reached up to 120hz that will minimise the horn size of the 120hz+ unit

A horn is another new sound compared to yuck bandpass,Ive never bothered building one,I know their bad. Instead I have a jbl 15" on overdamped bass reflex in my lounge Smile
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2004, 04:21:36 am »

I didn't say bandpass, but bandpas horn. Here is a drawing: http://www.speakerstore.nl/constructions/pbaudio/bandpasshoo rn_18/bandpass_18_1.gif Mine is modifed for 15" drivers.

The same as the F1, turbo and mach ballister subs. It isnt a horn, it isnt a bandpass, just a realy good mix of both witch sounds great! The only thing i'm worried about is the higher part of the band with, say about 250-350 Hz.
A straight horn will always preform better in my opinion. Maybe im going to test this in the comming year.  
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Roy N.

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2004, 07:55:10 am »

Hi Michiel,
How are you? That bandpass horn you have in speakerstore I am building right now with PD1850 what was the useable frequency response from your driver that you originally used? Also with the PD1850 what would be the HPF set at? What is the predicted response with the PD1850? I modified the cabinet a little using two horns in one cab and a support in the first bend and using 18mm Baltic Birch like what Bernie Sauderland did. Thanks!
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2004, 02:03:49 pm »

Roy, did you get my
PM??
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi)
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2004, 12:37:03 pm »

I started building this horn a few days a go. I'm building the double 8" version wich is indentical to the LAB12 loaded version except foor the baffle cut outs.

Some pics:

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=ys2vyu&outx=600&nore size=1&nostamp=1

http://images4.fotopic.net/?iid=ys2vtf&outx=600&nore size=1&nostamp=1

http://images2.fotopic.net/?iid=ys3chk&outx=600&nore size=1&nostamp=1

http://images3.fotopic.net/?iid=ys3dv8&outx=600&nore size=1&nostamp=1

http://images4.fotopic.net/?iid=ys2vyr&outx=600&nore size=1&nostamp=1
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[x]

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi) (building right now; pics inside)
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2005, 01:50:25 pm »

How does that horn model up with a Peavey Low Rider 15?
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michiel

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Re: Mini LAB (hifi) (building right now; pics inside)
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2005, 01:43:54 pm »

Almost ready. Smile Next weekend i'n planning to do the first tests.

For pics see: http://michiel-rijckaert.fotopic.net/c379291_1.html

What are the T/S of the peavy? I dont know if a 15" will go well in this horn since I designed the horn  for the LAB 12.
But, maybe it will work.
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