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Author Topic: Sound system for Basketball Gym  (Read 17371 times)

M256

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Sound system for Basketball Gym
« on: November 26, 2004, 04:15:23 pm »

Let me start off by saying I am new to sound.  I've been assigned the project of figuring out the sound system for a new basketball gym.
The budget for the project is $2,000.

The current plan is to get something that will play CD's while people play basketball (no spectators).  The size of the gym is 65 feet x 100 feet.  Ceiling is 22 feet.  

Pictures:
http://www.osbornewood.com/ee/sound.cfm

An added complication: there are several rooms in the back that need sound.
Three need stereo:
30 x 23
29 x 19
13 x 23

Also there are two rooms that don't need stereo:
13 x 23
14 x 23

Can somebody give me some advice about how to proceed?

Thank you,

Matthew
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2004, 05:42:28 pm »

Step 1:
Get a realistic budget for your project.  $2k will be tight for just the gym itself, in mono.  Forget the other rooms and forget about stereo unless you can get a realistic budget.

Remember that you need speakers, amps, CD player, mixer, racks, wire, connectors, mounting brackets, wire, conduit, and a few other things.  And don't forget to cover labor costs.

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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2004, 06:25:12 pm »

First off, you do need a realistic budget. You (almost) have to forget 2k (even for mono - youll need higher quality/better dispersion speakers for that space because it will be acoustical hell). 4k would most likely get you the gym (sans install) albiet at a bit of give and take. Id say that with 1.5~3k'ish (depending on quality and volume level desired of sub rooms) you could get the other rooms.

Karl P
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M256

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2004, 06:46:23 pm »

OK, first step complete.  I have approval for spending 7k-ish on the system.

What's next?

Matthew
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Scott Hibbard

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2004, 11:23:25 am »

Hi Matt,

Well that's good news, $ 7k is much more realistic.  Forgetting the other rooms (for now), the main basketball gym is going to have high ambient noise(s) such as bouncing balls, players, sneakers on the floor - it all adds up to an ambient noise level that you will have to overcome.  You might opt to take a simple SPL meter to the venue while a game is being played and take a few SPL measurements.

In order to proceed properly, you'll need to know (and tell us  Razz ):

1. the materials being used on the walls, floors and ceilings of each room

2. About the 3 rooms that "need" stereo...why is it that they need stereo?  Is it because someone said so (and may not know better) or because the program source will require it?  I'm not saying stereo isn't needed, it would be helpful to know why it is needed.

3. About program source & zoning, is it acceptable that the same source be played in all 6 rooms (including the gym) at the same time?  OR is there the possibility (and requirement) that distinct program sources will be needed in each room??  Ex. CD A playing in the gym while CD B plays in room 2?  Also ask youself if separate control over volume for each room is needed.

4. Who will operate the system?  Will it always be the same person or will the basketball players be permitted to operate? Might seem like a silly question but can have a large impact on the overall design.

5. Last but not least, do some planning for the future.  That might be nothing more than asking if there are plans someday to add bleechers/spectators to the gym.  The last thing you'll want to do is install a sound system and then 6 months from now find 200 spectators watching - that will add considerably to ambient noise.

Matt once some of the above is known, I and some of the great forum members here can provide more meaningful input to you.

ScottH
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2004, 05:28:32 pm »

Pst:
When he said "stereo" he was talking in consumer-audio-speak when "stereo" meens a system as a whole, rather than a form of ZDM <g>

Karl P
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M256

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2004, 05:57:42 pm »

ScottH,

Thanks for responding.  I did some research and talked to the boss.  I found that I didn't understand the project as well as I thought I did.  Sorry for the bad communication.

At this point, finding out what speakers to get for the basketball gym and where to put them is the biggest issue.  So, if somebody could help me with this first that would be wonderful.

I like the thought of taking measurements of people playing basketball.  However, the building is not done yet.  There are several walls missing.
Also, they want the sound system in by the time the building is complete.

1.  Materials

Basketball Court
Walls: sheet rock
Ceiling: normal metal building insulation and steel beams
Floor: vinyl covering
65 x 100

Bathrooms
Walls: sheet rock
Ceiling: suspended tile
Floor: vinyl covering
13 x 23
14 x 23

Weight Room
Walls: sheet rock and mirrors
Ceiling: suspended tile
Floor: rubber
30 x 23

Aerobic room
Walls: sheet rock
Ceiling: suspended tile
Floor: half is carpet, half is rubber
13 x 23
and
29 x 19

2.  There will be TV's with two speakers in those rooms.  Anything we add will be to augment those, hopefully with a "surround sound" feel.

3.  The basketball court and bathrooms will be on the same system.  The others are separate from that and each other.
One room is different; the dream is to have two TV's showing different programs with wireless headsets that you can switch from one TV to the other.  I am not sure what is involved in that, though.
In lieu of a central sound board, we are thinking of having a computer with the CD's and TV programs copied to the hard drive, and extender units to play them at the different locations:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1673910,00.asp
This is still very much in the planning stage; if you have any comments I would love to hear them.
I think we want separate volume controls in the bathrooms and basketball gym.

4.  The basketball players will operate the system.

5.  There won't be spectators.  I don't think there is room for bleachers even if somebody changes their mind.
However, planning for the future is a great idea.  There is the possibility we might want to put in a large TV at on end of the basketball court to watch movies on.
Also, we might put in a temporary stage for church services and/or live music.  I think if/when the time comes, we will put in a snake and sound board.

If I left anything out, if anything does not make sense, or if there are any other questions to answer, please let me know.

Matthew
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Scott Hibbard

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2004, 10:57:21 pm »

Hi Matt,

With the info you provided, let me take a stab at some suggestions for you.  Please consider my input as suggestions. Without actually seeing the rooms and doing some analysis, the best I can do here is provide some guidelines to get you going in the right direction.

No apologies for the communication - you're going to learn something new everyday throughout this project - even the most seasoned of us so on almost every job.  So keep asking questions and gathering information  Razz

Now onto the details.  For starters the main rooms (i.e. weight room, aerobics room and basketball court) are somewhat acoustically "friendly" if you will.  Having sheetrock walls, vinyl/carpet flooring and a drop ceiling (except for the court) is a blessing.  You could be stuck with concrete walls, wood floors and an open ceiling!  So in that respect you are lucky.  

I read your mention of the possibility of a temporary stage for church performances.  Because you only have $7k to satisfy your current needs, I won't address the possibility of a stage in detail other than to say I would consider it out of scope for this project.  Meeting the requirements you currently have for the sporting facets and trying to meet the requirements for live/stage sound isn't realistic with 7k.  For now let's consider addressing the sporting rooms.

Because the main gym is decent sized at 65*100 with 22 foot ceilings, you have two good options.  One would be a (4) speaker cluster flown in the center of the gym at a minimum of 14 feet in height to avoid fyling balls.  Have a look at the 3-speaker array on the left hand side of this page http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=22& ;id=210.  These are Yorkville NX Series speakers with NX Series Flyware.  These would make a nice solution in that they are cost effective (you can get 4 NX250's for under $ 1,400)  Add some extra for the arrayware - but still cost effective.  You can then power these with a decent amp - the QSC RMX1850HD comes to mind - $ 499.  IF YOU CHOOSE TO GO WITH AN ARRAY WHICH IS FLOWN OVERHEAD, BY ALL MEANS CONSULT AND/OR HIRE SOMEONE WHO IS EXPERIENCED/CERTIFIED TO DO SO.  NEVER ATTEMPT TO FLY SPEAKERS OVERHEAD UNLESS YOU ARE QUALIFIED.  THIS CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY OR WORSE, DEATH.  I hate to sound morbid, but by all means exercise caution!  

Your other option is to suround the perimeter of the room with smaller, wall-mounted foreground speakers (example Yorkville Colesium C170's).  This option will require more speakers, probably at least 8 but won't require any overhead rigging.  For the bathrooms, I would keep it simple - (2) small ceiling speaers per room powered by a small amp of your choice.

I would also recommend against wall mounted volume controls for two reasons: (1) They won't last long - I can't imagine that the players are going to treat them with excessive care and (2) someone will ALWAYS be monkey'ing around with the volume.  Instead I would recommend you treat the gym and the bathrooms as two separate "zones" controlled from a multi-zone mixer (Rolls, Rane, InterM come to mind) whereby you can set the volumes from one central location.  More importantly you can put a security cover over the mixer such that the bathroom control is never touched.  You'll want to leave the main gym volume exposed for obvious reasons.

As far as the aerobics room, this room might very well have an instructor with a headworn mic (so check into that).  For this reason and the fact that aeoribcs are generally fast paced and high energy, I would recommend staying away from ceiling mount speakers.  They generally are excellent for background but not so for foreground.  Instead consider wall-mounted foreground speakers that are horn-loaded (as opposed to a dome tweeter) because of the microphone use.  You might even opt for a small subwoofer to aid in the creation of "energy".  This would of course be a separate system from the main gym/bathrooms with it's own small mixer and amp.

The weight room might also do well from the same design as the aerobics room minus the subwoofer and perhaps with slightly smaller wall mounted speakers - because there will probably not be any microphone use there.  Same here - separate amp and separate mixer from other rooms.  

Last but not least rack all the equipment in lockable racks to protect your investment.  

Well my fingers are tired and I have probably spent your $ 7k already, so I hope this was of some help to you.  This might very well go down into PSW history as the longest reply on record! (LOL!)

ScottH


P.S. Another option would be a digital matrix mixer but I purposely avoided going into details there because it doesn't readily fit into your budget.  
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Rob Timmerman

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2004, 11:53:59 pm »

I'm going to agree with Scott on general design, although I would consider speakers on the 4 corners of the basketball court ceiling to be another viable option that would give you a bit more flexibility with regards to future expansion.

You really want all the equipment in a locked rack, to prevent tampering.  

Manufacturers to look at:
Speakers:
Yorkville
JBL Control Contractor series
Electrovoice SX series, especially the Sx300 and Sx80

Mixers:
Rane
Shure SCM series
InterM
Rolls
Ashly
Radio Design Labs

Amps:
QSC RMX series
Ashly multichannel amps
Samson Servo series (lower wattage)

Here is a hypothetical design:

Gym: $3500
4 EV Sx300 + flying hardware: $2500
2 QSC RMX1850HD: $1000

Bathrooms: $300-800
4 Generic 8" ceiling speakers : $100
OR choose a higher quality model from Bose or JBL : $600
1x Samson Servo 170 : $200

Weight Room: $900
2 EV Sx80 + mounting brackets: $600
1 QSC RMX800: $300

Aerobics Room: $1200
2 EV Sx80 + mounting brackets: $600
1 QSC RMX800: $300
1 Shure T series headset wireless: $300

Total so far (amps + speakers for each room):$5900-6400
I'd use an EAW commercial DX810 to drive the whole system, at a cost of around $1300.  Make a custom control panel if you like.

Wire and an equipment rack easily add another $200-300

A bit over budget, but you get the idea.
And remember, this is only a hypothetical design without knowing what the space looks like.
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M256

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Re: Sound system for Basketball Gym
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2004, 01:24:51 pm »

Thanks for all your help.  I am going to have a professional come and look at the building.

Your comments have been very helpful to me.

Matthew
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