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Author Topic: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit  (Read 9003 times)

Kent Clemmons

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2004, 02:41:28 pm »

FYI... the foam in question was put in to cut down on the stage volume and feedback from the monitoring rig, not to cut down on noise being propagated outside the building.  

Kent
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yam4000vca Jim Gould

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2004, 03:31:25 pm »

It was my understanding that the foam was sold to the club by a neighbor that had issues with the volume from the club that also happened to be a foam salesman. I think it may be in this same thread but more toward the beginning of it. This thread is pretty old.
It is not relevant any way as to me in this type of a place a fire resistant material should have been used. Better yet no pyro should have been done. As usual the cost was the factor in this decision I am sure.
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Dave Stevens

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2004, 03:29:34 am »

At the time of the incident, you needed a minimum of three things to legally fire pyro in an entertainment venue.

1) Pyrotechnician licensed and recognised by the State of Rhode Island.

Based on public reports by public officials, they did not have that.

2) Permits for the show. Based on the same reports, didn't have.

3) When you get permits, there is a test fire and an inspection.  Didn't happen because they went under the radar.  Part of that inspection is a fire safety plan.

A professional pyrotech is aware of the environment and situation in which the effects are discharged.  I've worked around many and while they might be pretty wacky guys, they are job one with safety.  The pyro knows when to fire and when not to and the problem is that the guy that fired wasn't a trained professional pyrotech.

The scariest thing about this thread is that some are willing to look past the key reason for this happening.  Some guys that didn't know any better working for a washed up band made some decisions that cost scores of people thier lives and effected the lives of many others.  

When it comes to gigs and safety, if you don't know what the fuck  you are doing and aren't doing it legally, you shouldn't be doing it.

Dave
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analog Tom

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2004, 02:22:58 pm »

Quote:

"The scariest thing about this thread is that some are willing to look past the key reason for this happening. Some guys that didn't know any better working for a washed up band made some decisions that cost scores of people thier lives and effected the lives of many others."
 

I truly hope that this isn't correct.  As I read the thread, there seem legitimate differences of opinion about why this happened.  

I think everyone can agree that a band brought in a pyro show without a proper, trained, licensed operator.  It's easy to see that as a problem.  But what was the nature of that problem?  

The out-of-state band should not be held to know more about Rhode Island fire safety laws than the local, experienced venue owners.  The venue owners sought to profit by bringing in the band.  Why should they not bear some of the responsibility for the results of theact they chose to book?  Why should they not bear responsibility for the use of unsafe, flamable building materials in their venue?  

A promoter (or promoters) sought to profit by promoting a band which was using untrained, inexperienced pyro people to run a show which didn't get proper licensing and inspection.  Why should that(those) promoter(s) not share the responsibility for the results of what they did in search of their cut of the profits?  

Quote:

"When it comes to gigs and safety, if you don't know what the fuck you are doing and aren't doing it legally, you shouldn't be doing it."
 

Easily applies to pyro, rigging, wiring up gear, handling crowd control, mixing drinks at the bar, fixing food in the kitchen, etc.  Death in a pyro fire is very dramatic, but no more tragic than death from food poisoning from a bad cook or contaminated food.  

It looks like there is plenty of blame to go around - everyone wanted to share in the benefits ($$$) of the concert, but no one wants blame for the resulting problem.  I think dumping all the blame on a bunch of probably-uneducated musicians is a cop out.  

Cordially,  
Tom
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2004, 02:47:21 pm »

I know that I don't know the answers and that's why there is discovery, judges, and courts. That said some of this sharing of blame "could" be interpreted as pursuit of deeper pockets than the few struggling musos...

I don't think we'll resolve this here, and once again I am unable to magically discern the motives of others. Time and the courts will tell.

JR
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Mike Babcock

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2004, 03:03:21 pm »

Does there have to be just one person at fault?

I don't know if the person who pushed the button is ultimately to blame, certainly holds a bunch of blame. But as Tim pointed out, there were other factors involved that if any one of them were not there, disaster would have been avoided, either temporarily or altogether. If Great White's guy didn't push the button, how long would it have taken for some other loser to do it. The place was a death trap as it was because certain safety procedures were not followed by the building and or the fire inspector.
MHO
Mike
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Craig Leerman

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Re: New Station Nightclub / Great White Lawsuit
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2004, 06:31:46 pm »

Quote:

 
The out-of-state band should not be held to know more about Rhode Island fire safety laws than the local, experienced venue owners. The venue owners sought to profit by bringing in the band. Why should they not bear some of the responsibility for the results of theact they chose to book? Why should they not bear responsibility for the use of unsafe, flamable building materials in their venue?




The laws for doing pyro are almost the same in every state. Dave stated the three basic things that should have been done no matter where you are doing pyro. 1. Licensed pyro tech, 2. permits, 3. inspection and test fire

The more complex list looks like this:

* Licensed pyrotechnician (who should also have at his disposal the local laws and codes for every state, and county where they will be doing pyro which are easily gotten off the internet or by calling the local Fire Marshalls offices). The Road manager who fired the pyro at the Great White Show was neither trained, or licensed

* A permit should have been pulled for the venue. By pulling a permit, they would have automatically have notified the fire marshall for an inspection and to some extent it would have alerted the local hall that pyro was to be performed at the show. The Road manager or the Band never pulled a permit for the Station show (or any show that they had done that year)

* The bands rider should have stated if pyro was a part of the show, and any contact numbers for the bands pyrotechnician, along with any applicable licensing numbers and certification for the pyrotechnician.  ]Great White's rider as shown on the smoking gun mentions no pyro nor did their contract

* Permission from the hall or venue should have been obtained before doing pyro, unless it was agreed upon as part of the contract or contract rider. Great White or the Road Manager/Pyro guy never notified the venue verbally or in writing about pyro (at least according to the venue owners and club personnel)

* An inspection  of the venue from the pyrotechnician and the Fire Marshall should be done. The pyro technician may be asked to perform a test firing of any or all devices to be used at the show for the Fire Marshall.   no permit was pulled, and no inspection was done. Even if the band's pyro guy had a clue, a simple visual inspection of the venue would have shown that the place was not suitable for pyro (not enough height over devices, blocked exits, foam and other questionable substances around stage area, no safety equipment, etc)

* The pyro devices instruction need to be followed. In the Great White Tragedy, it is clear that the manufacturers instructions regarding the pyro device in question were not followed. The devices used in the Great White Tragedy stated a minimum clear height that needed to be over the devices to safely operate them. This clear height rule was not followed

* A Fire Watch and Safety Observers need to be present during all pyro use. A minimum of 2 safety people need to be present during any pyro activities. Both should be on the lookout for any hazards associated with the pyro, such as performers or audience  standing to close to a device, a device that was knocked over, etc. Both should be in a position to cover all stage areas visually, and have either a dead man type switch to stop the pyro firing, or be in radio/clear comms communication to the firing technician.  On small shows, one of the two people may actually do the firing of the devices. On larger shows, its not uncommon for three or more pyro safety folks to be used.  These safety folks should be trained to use fire extinguishers, and should have them at the ready by their side. Great White's road manager acted as the pyro guy, and had no other safety folks there, nor did he act as a safety/fire watch himself. He had no extinguisher with him, not did he try to contain the blaze as it started

* Safety and Fire equipment needed for pyro is usually brought in by the pyro folks. In addition, the venues in house safety equipment will be checked (usually by the fire marshall) Great White and their guy brought in no fire extinguishers, or any other safety equipment with them, and never checked out the venue's safety equipment (or lack there of)

* Pyro devices are supposed to be transported in properly labeled vehicles, and properly designed and labeled containers. Great White and their Road Manager carried the pyro in their bus, which had no warning placards on it. In addition, they did not use an approved or labled pyro shipping/storage container.

* A Pre-show safety meeting is the norm for all pyro, and dangerous special effects. All performers, crew, safety personal and security personnel should gather at a preshow meeting and go over what will happen onstage. Any emergency contingency plans are discussed, and peoples individual assignments are gone over.   Great White Road Manager never called a safety meeting, or discussed plans to do pyro with any of the venue personnel, security folks, or crew.

The simple fact is that if Great White's Road manager/Pyro Guy had even a small clue, he would have noticed that:
A. The Venue was too small for his pyro devices to be used onstage and
B. The Venue had questionable materials all around the stage that would have been too close for any pyro device.


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