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Author Topic: digital console  (Read 10630 times)

ivan

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digital console
« on: July 16, 2004, 01:48:18 pm »

hi, what it will be a good idea for a digital console, 24 inputs... any problems w/ it? any sudgestions?
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Brad Herring

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Re: digital console
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2004, 09:35:17 am »

At the risk of starting a firestorm...

What is your purpose for the digital console?  If it's a live mix I personally urge you against it.  For consoles in the TYPICAL church budget there are very few that even come close to being usable for live sound (in my opinion).

While they offer some great features, and are the future of sound, they currently offer some strong disadvantages to the live sound market - in particular the house of worship market.  First, everything is usually buried in menus.  If you have a volunteer running sound and everything starts falling apart, having to hunt through often cryptic menus is the last thing you want to induce.

Your reaction time is usually slowed as a result.  Plus, while stage presets are great, they are only so good.  They'll get you in the ball park, but not a walk away solution like many think.  There are too many variables.  First, you are most commonly working with volunteer band members whos skill level runs the gammit.  Next, you have incredible temperature and humidity differences between setup and "performance".  You also have largly variable house attendance - this changing the setup.  Don't get me wrong - I love presets, but be aware that it's not lighting - audio demands work.

Saying that.  If you MUST go digital, I'd look at the Spirit Digital.  It has a horizontal control strip that when a channel is activated becomes the eq, aux, and gain setup.  It at least keeps you from fumbling through menus, and it is affordable to most budgets.  I still don't like how it switches back and forth between the upper and lower half of the channels, but that's just typical.

Yamaha makes some good digital consoles, but they are menu intensive.

If you are recording -- just through all that out.  I'd look at the o1v (used) or similar console.
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ivan

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Re: digital console
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2004, 01:30:08 pm »

the thing is that people come and think that they are engineers and move around all of my http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/images/message_icons/icon8.gif" target="_blank"> settings.http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/images/message_icon s/icon8.gif'
so when the service start i don't even have time to runa a sound check, because they use the space for sunday http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/images/message_icons/icon9.gif" target="_blank"> school.http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/images/message_icons/ icon9.gif
i was looking the YAMAHA 01V96 Digital Mixer. i like the idea of the presets and also is way cheaper than going analog. (i don't have to buy compressors, gates, fx, etc. per channel).
if someone has use YAMAHA 01V96 Digital Mixer please tell me the advanteges or problems w/ this mixer. i am going to use this mixer w/ this speakers:
2 TXD-118 1x18 Subwoofer
2 TXD-151 15" 2-Way PA Speaker
1 dbx crossover
1 dbx compressor
1 furman

check the jpegs
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ivan

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Re: digital console
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2004, 01:31:08 pm »

church band location
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ivan

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Re: digital console
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2004, 01:31:43 pm »

how the church looks like
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Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX

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Re: digital console
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2004, 02:05:10 pm »

Brad I see your point, most digital consoles, especially in the price range of most small churches, are not maximized for live sound. I have worked with 2 churches that have small digital consoles and for them it worked very well. They already had the mixers before I started helping them. One of the reasons it worked for them is actually one of the reasons it wouldn’t work for some others. The fact that things like the EQ being a little harder to get at kept some people from twiddling with it.

I am hoping that we will be able to get a digital console for our new church building. At a meeting last week when I mentioned the PM5DH to one of the acoustic/audio consultants, his hesitation was the 56-channel limit (according to him). We have 3 different types of services on a Sunday, so the recall feature for the size console we would need would come in very handy. Which digital consoles do you think are good for live use?
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ivan

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Re: digital console
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2004, 08:10:39 pm »

does anyone recomend me where to buy all my gear very cheap? any internet company, or guitar center type ?
so far i havent been helped w/all my inquieres. please help
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Stuie

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Re: digital console
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2004, 08:55:55 pm »

Ivan

In a small setting the digital desk is a very step learning curve and i dont believe is viable. For a larger desk i would look at the digital as the additional features really come the fore front Recall, Fx, Ability to add extra modules in and expands desk size is great.

I would aim at a Soundcraft LX7 Mk2 if you can stretch the budget have a look at Allan + Heath GL 2200 great desk nice sound and a great work horse.

The good things about the Yamaha O1v96 is the ability to grow without changing sound desks is easy just buy a new module. You could even mix a message in 5.1 there is a article on Herbie handcock and mixing a live concert in 5.1 surround sound.

Down side is in digital desk the desk isnt too rider friendly if you dont know what you are doing its easy to get lost. Also if you dont like the effects you are stuck with them ie dynamic range of the desk, Compression, Reverbs.

Cheers
Stuiw
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Tom Young

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Re: digital console
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2004, 08:18:46 am »

Brad's cmments have merit.

However, if you do have sound staff that are at least semi-skilled and can move around the menus with some speed, I see digital live mixers more and more as a viable method for mixing in HOW.  If nothing esle, these mixers allow for switching (near seemlessly) between varied services that many HOW now incorporate into their service schedules.

Aside from the Spirit, Yamaha's DM1000 and D2000 are finding there way into Broadway shows and venues such as Kennedy Center in Washington DC.  Plus quite a few HOW.

Mackie is about to release a new live digital console that (like all digital consoles) offers a huge amount of busing/matricing and processing.  I would not advise being the first to buy one of these, but after they've been out for 6-12 months we all should have a good idea of its merits.
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Stuie

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Re: digital console
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2004, 08:29:47 am »

Hi Tom

I find digital a little hard for some of our riders as things are buried a bit deep for them. But i agree for an application like foldback digital has some serious appliactions, i you need an extra 6 foldback sends all that is need is a new board a hey presto. Its not like analogue um we need some serious dollars here fella do you need that kidney.

The only down side i can see with digital is the effects i have had this dicussion with a good friend of mine. Digital you are stuck witht he fx on board, yes you can purchase them as a rack but the idea of digital is to rid yourself of analogue racks.

For small churchs it is still cheaper long term to go a small 24 channel desk. But the future is changing so are our desks.

Cheers
Stuie
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Phil Ouellette

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Re: digital console
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2004, 01:50:35 pm »

Stuie wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 08:29

Hi Tom

The only down side i can see with digital is the effects i have had this dicussion with a good friend of mine. Digital you are stuck witht he fx on board, yes you can purchase them as a rack but the idea of digital is to rid yourself of analogue racks.

Stuie


Ever hear of plug-ins?  I know you can plug the Waves Y56K FX card into a DM2000. Plus you can download different FX plug-ins into the DM1000 and DM2000 also.  Check this out link about Yamaha downloadable FX.

http://www.musiciansnews.com/31/yamaha_effects_packages_for_ digital_mixing_dm2000_dm1000_and.shtml

Mackie also supports downloaded FX plug-ins on the D8B and DXB digital consoles. I don't know if the new Mackie live digital board supports FX downloads, but I wouldn't be surprised it if did.

Phil
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Mac Kerr

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Re: digital console
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2004, 05:13:55 pm »

Stuie wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 08:29

Hi Tom

I find digital a little hard for some of our riders as things are buried a bit deep for them. But i agree for an application like foldback digital has some serious appliactions, i you need an extra 6 foldback sends all that is need is a new board a hey presto. Its not like analogue um we need some serious dollars here fella do you need that kidney.

The only down side i can see with digital is the effects i have had this dicussion with a good friend of mine. Digital you are stuck witht he fx on board, yes you can purchase them as a rack but the idea of digital is to rid yourself of analogue racks.

For small churchs it is still cheaper long term to go a small 24 channel desk. But the future is changing so are our desks.

Cheers
Stuie
What is buried too deep? On a DM2000 all the normal controls have dedicated knobs and require NO menu. Patching and editing fx parameters do require menus or an external computer, but you can't edit them from the surface of an analog console either.

How are you stuck with the internal fx? There are plenty of inputs and outputs to attach any external fx device you want. Just because it is convenient to have no external racks doesn't mean you have to.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: digital console
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2004, 05:31:25 pm »

TheMAXX wrote on Mon, 19 July 2004 14:05

snip

I am hoping that we will be able to get a digital console for our new church building. At a meeting last week when I mentioned the PM5DH to one of the acoustic/audio consultants, his hesitation was the 56-channel limit (according to him). We have 3 different types of services on a Sunday, so the recall feature for the size console we would need would come in very handy. Which digital consoles do you think are good for live use?

You might point out to your consultant that the PM5D can only control 64 input channels at any one time, 48 mono in 8 stereo in. That is all the faders it has. It can have access many as 124 inputs by using 16 channel digital I/O cards in the 4 slots, or 92 inputs using 8 channel analog cards. The 16 channel digital cards also give you 16 outputs each. The inputs can be repatched on a cue by cue basis if you need more than 48 plus 8 stereo in any given service. The DM2000 has no DCA's, and is a little harder to get around, but it has a full 96 channels available all the time with 16 channel digital input cards. I have little experience with the PM5D (at this point no one has much), but have mixed many live shows on DM2000 and PM1D over the past 2 years.

Mac Kerr

ps Where are you in SW CT? I am in Westchester County NY
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Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX

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Re: digital console
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2004, 07:57:37 pm »

Mac Kerr wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 17:31

TheMAXX wrote on Mon, 19 July 2004 14:05

snip

I am hoping that we will be able to get a digital console for our new church building. At a meeting last week when I mentioned the PM5DH to one of the acoustic/audio consultants, his hesitation was the 56-channel limit (according to him). We have 3 different types of services on a Sunday, so the recall feature for the size console we would need would come in very handy. Which digital consoles do you think are good for live use?

You might point out to your consultant that the PM5D can only control 64 input channels at any one time, 48 mono in 8 stereo in. That is all the faders it has. It can have access many as 124 inputs by using 16 channel digital I/O cards in the 4 slots, or 92 inputs using 8 channel analog cards. The 16 channel digital cards also give you 16 outputs each. The inputs can be repatched on a cue by cue basis if you need more than 48 plus 8 stereo in any given service. The DM2000 has no DCA's, and is a little harder to get around, but it has a full 96 channels available all the time with 16 channel digital input cards. I have little experience with the PM5D (at this point no one has much), but have mixed many live shows on DM2000 and PM1D over the past 2 years.

Mac Kerr

ps Where are you in SW CT? I am in Westchester County NY


Thanks for the reply Mac. That’s what I thought and what I tried to tell him but I am not sure he understood. This guy is from the Acoustic/tech firm that was brought in. Sometimes a prophet isn’t recognized in his home land. Or is that the loss. So I will just keep nudging them but keep my distance.

I am in Fairfield CT.
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Kevin Maxwell
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Dan Costello

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Re: digital console
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2004, 02:01:11 am »

Quote:

the thing is that people come and think that they are engineers and move around all of my settings


Hmmm... nobody seems to have touched on this yet.

1) Why are these people back there?

2) Do they need to be back there?

2a) If so, do they need to be touching the stuff they're touching?

2aa) If not, can you show them how to do it properly, and break their fingers for not doing it correctly?

-Dan.
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Dan Costello

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Mac Kerr

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Re: digital console
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2004, 01:22:57 pm »

ivan wrote on Mon, 19 July 2004 20:10

does anyone recomend me where to buy all my gear very cheap? any internet company, or guitar center type ?
so far i havent been helped w/all my inquieres. please help
You can shop for your gear yourself as easily as we can. In none of your posts have you mentioned what your budget is, or where you are located. If you think your budget will allow for only a 01V96 you can easily do a Google search and come up with lots of places selling on the internet. Most of the pricing services have ratings for the vendors. You can compare those prices with whatever you can get from a more local vendor who MIGHT be able to offer you after sale support. You will have to make the call about how to buy. The 01V96 is reputed to be a great little board. I have not used one myself, and would recommend biting the bullet and moving up to a $4-5k DM1000, which is an amazing little board. If you church has the funds, at $7k the Mackie TT24 looks like a very easy to use expandable console. There has been recent feedback in these forum as to it's ease of use.

Good luck with whatever you do

Mac Kerr
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Tom Young

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Re: digital console
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2004, 03:51:36 pm »

"For small churchs it is still cheaper long term to go a small 24 channel desk. But the future is changing so are our desks."

The future may be now. Granted, the Mackie TT24 is not a proven product yet. But if you were to add up the costs for an analog system including a 24-channel mixer, several stereo effects and 1/2 dozen channels of dynamics processing..... the Mackie TT24 would cost about the same or just a bit more. And it offers more inputs plus 4-band parametric EQ on each input, etc, etc.

So once this product has established itself, in my opinion it will represent a very good value for small and large (read: poor and not so poor) HOW.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Mac Kerr

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Re: digital console
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2004, 03:09:03 pm »

Tom Young wrote on Sun, 01 August 2004 15:51

"For small churchs it is still cheaper long term to go a small 24 channel desk. But the future is changing so are our desks."

The future may be now. Granted, the Mackie TT24 is not a proven product yet. But if you were to add up the costs for an analog system including a 24-channel mixer, several stereo effects and 1/2 dozen channels of dynamics processing..... the Mackie TT24 would cost about the same or just a bit more. And it offers more inputs plus 4-band parametric EQ on each input, etc, etc.

So once this product has established itself, in my opinion it will represent a very good value for small and large (read: poor and not so poor) HOW.
At a 7 kilobuck price point the TT24 looks pretty attractive. It still has no real input routing, and fx returns are on a separate layer. I don't have a problem with consoles that require layers, it is no secret that I am a big DM2000-PM1D fan and user, it's just that you should be able to assign stuff to the layer you need to create workable mix setups. I think the DM1000 offers more for a little less than TT24, however it is not as easy to navigate. The user interface of the TT24 seems good. For groups with a bigger budget who might have been thinking about a PM3500 or a used 4K or XL3, The new Yamaha PM5D at am MSRP of $49k should blow them away. Midas H3000 users who have tried it have been very impressed with the sound, and it is the easiest Yamaha to operate.

Mac Kerr
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ivan

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Re: digital console
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2004, 12:23:37 pm »

my problem is the budget, i only have 11K for everything. i need to buy speakers, di, amps, cross over, electronic drum set, desk, cables, etc.

i am trying to save as much as possible. if you checked the pictures of my church, you'll see that it's a small  church, i have problems w/ acoustic (lots of echos for example when you clap)

i would love to buy a dm1000, but i can't afford it, since the speakers, amps etc is like 4,300.

thanks for your help. and please feel free to help me
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Mac Kerr

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Re: digital console
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2004, 01:20:19 pm »

ivan wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 12:23

my problem is the budget, i only have 11K for everything. i need to buy speakers, di, amps, cross over, electronic drum set, desk, cables, etc.

i am trying to save as much as possible. if you checked the pictures of my church, you'll see that it's a small  church, i have problems w/ acoustic (lots of echos for example when you clap)

i would love to buy a dm1000, but i can't afford it, since the speakers, amps etc is like 4,300.

thanks for your help. and please feel free to help me
Without a real breakdown of what you are spending on what it is hard to say, but it sure looks like a 24 mic pre DM1000 w/ADA8000 and ADAT card can squeeze into your budget. The board should be around $5k complete with meter bridge. You don't need a road case. Add $4300 for amps and speakers, I don't know what else you have in that "etc.", but that leaves $1700 for your electronic drums and accessories. It IS tight, but it seems do-able. The advantage is upgrade ability to 48 in, all input processing included. There are a lot things not in your first list you will eventually want which are included in a DM1000.

Mac
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Tom Young

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Re: digital console
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2004, 09:13:20 pm »

Mac is spot on.  

But I would add: Your doing what lots of churches do; you come up with a sum of money and then declare that you will buy all that you need at that particular moment with this budget. It doesn't work that way (in any type of purchase) and you will end up with sub par equipment that needs to be upgraded so that you have just plain fairly decent sound.

Do research, decide what you can buy with this budget and then get more money to complete the job in a half-way decent manner.
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Mark T

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Re: digital console
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2004, 10:33:02 am »

FWIW,

We have been using a Roland VM-7200 digital console in our church for about 18 months and have had excellent results with it.  As of last year, it is no longer manufactured but you can find them used on e-bay.  We recently purchased a used second system with 2 processors (40 inputs, 12 aux sends) and a full complement of outboard A/D-D/A converters (which gives us a total of 96 inputs, each with eq, and compression plus 48 direct outputs) for $4,000.  The reason for the second system was to build a road kit and to prepare for an additional sanctuary. This also gave us some redundancy in case we do have support problems (that is the obvious downside of buying gear that is out of production).

We would have loved to buy a PM5D or even a DM2000 but the reality was that it just wasn't going to fit our budget.  Instead, we chose to focus the budget dollars on acoustic consulting and speaker selection/placement.  Those things are much harder change/fix so I'd like to do them as well as possible.  In our case, we knew we could use a lower cost mixer and still do everything we needed to do. As often happens, we had to make a compromise that could fit our budget and still meet our needs.  This board has done that well for us.  Is it the ideal mixer? No.  Are we happy with it? Absolutely!

I echo all of the comments regarding learning curves for digital mixers.  It will take some time to get used to.  Our operators took anywhere from two weeks to two months to get comfortable with the features they need every week.  Even after 18 months, only two of us are really familiar with all of the boards capabilities.  That may seem like a problem but I could have said the same thing about the Mackie SR24-4 we replaced. Some people just want to know enough to get by; I'm not happy until I have a schematic in my hand. Smile


Having scene presets is wonderful.  We have three seperate service configurations across 5 different services and moving from one to the next is as simple as pressing a button.  That button restores every preamp gain, fader level, aux send (all 12 of them), eq, and compressor to the place they need to be.  We may still have to tweak a setting here or there but that's much easier than setting 40 levels across 13 busses.

Being able to recall scenes also makes it possible for a great operator to create a starting point for a newbie.  Our operators seem to learn faster when they aren't immediately overwhelmed by all of the settings that need to be made for a contemporary service with a full band.  Learning a little at a time seems to work well.

I have to say that this forum is a great place to get ideas and share experiences.  I always learn something when I check in but the thing that always strikes me is that one solution does not fit all.  Looking at the other posts, it appears you have several options.  Your job is to find the one that fits your church best. Smile
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Elgaard

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Re: digital console
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2004, 03:45:19 am »

Personally I can only recommend ditalmixers. We have just bougth a Yamaha 01v96 and 3 Behringer ADA 8000 ADAT converters. In that way we have 32 ch. in and a LOT of outputs.

The sound is clear and welldefined. If you compare the price of the things you get with at digitalmixer (01v96) and and a medium price analog mixer, I will for sure choose the digital solution. You have effects, dynamic effects, eq and the hole package rigth at your hand.

Another thing that have been a big problem in the past for us, was the kids tampering with the gear. Its history now. Start up the gear, press 1, and everything is exactly as I have stored them.

When you are going to expand to 64 channels: Buy a mixer more, and two Behringer ADA 8000 ADAT converters. Then just cascade.

In Denmark a setup with 64 channel will cost approx. $6.600 plus taxes. Thats cheap  Surprised

I hope this will help you a bit. You are welcome to contact me for further advice.

God bless

Elgaard
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Elgaard

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Re: digital console
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2004, 03:47:57 am »

See my reply to the original message!

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Re: digital console
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2004, 03:47:57 am »


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