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Author Topic: Sub Choices  (Read 9469 times)

(Brian) Frost

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Sub Choices
« on: October 28, 2004, 03:06:47 pm »

I havent found a sub that really suits my needs yet.  The system is for corporate work in high end hotel ballrooms etc.  We are using Nexo PS10s as mains with powerlites running them.   Right now we have an apogee sub that is no more than OK.   I need a reasonably small sub that can run off of 1200 watts or is powered.  

I have tried Nexo subs.  sounded pretty good but really needed a BIIG poweramp to do what I wanted.  I am circuit limited in a lot of situations so I cannot carry a macro 5000.

I have tried Bag Ends, which werent bad once you added the bag end processor but I would like better.

I have tried some of the cheap subs like mackie and yorkville and thought they sounded worse than what I have.  The yorkville ls 500 in particular sounded good at low volumes but sounded like it had a limiter in it, when I got louder, the sub stayed the same.

The closest I have come has been a meyer usw1.    It sounded fantastic, and is exactly the size I want it to be.  My problem came in that it DOESNT HAVE A TRIM of any kind! I run my levels pretty conservatively and even with the sub output cranked, the sub seemed to have a lot of room to get louder.  This would be perfect if it had a trim to mate better with the rest of my system.   I will not spend $4k on a sub then have to build a line driver or back off my main amp trims (losing headroom)  to integrate it.

The usw1 was the perfect form factor, what can I do to integrate it with little or no kluge factor?  what else should I look into?

Thanks
Frost
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Frost

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AxeSlash

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2004, 04:14:07 pm »

Are you using the B2EX processor with the USWs? I believe that has a trim control...

But if you want powered, get PSW2s. USW in a powered trapezoid box basically. Bigger, admittedly. We stuck top hats in ours and they've been out with our UPA1Ps constantly ever since.

(my opinion anyway)

- Jez
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(Brian) Frost

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2004, 04:27:44 pm »

no, Im using the nexo processor.  I tried it with an output of the board and just using the crossover in the sub, didnt like it.  it sounded great with the nexo processor, just not loud enough.
Frost
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Frost

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Phill Chapman (Chappie)

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2004, 05:51:18 am »

USW-1P's are very nice but as you say, they can run out of steam depending on what you are using them for.  They just don't have enough grunt for most applications.  If you can find some PSW-4's second-hand, they would work better.

If you want bigger still, you could try Meyer 650's.  A pair of older unpowered R2's will go lower than the modern, powered version.  Another alternative is the EM Acoustics Quake.  They are very powerful and will take as much amp power as you can throw at them.
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ironmansound

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2004, 09:41:57 am »

Here is what I do... I have all of my PS stuff on powerlights as well and am also forced to use outlets in many cases. I have about 20 EV T18 subs loaded with EVX's in our inventory which albeit a little on the ghetto side work really well with PL's and the Nexo sub outputs (eq and loudness). this is a horn/manifold design so they are very efficient and they also have pole cups on the top for the ps10's to go on top. I would still recommend using the Nexo subs with pl's that is not a bad way to go..
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Juan Turro

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2004, 10:39:16 am »

I will also recommend the Meyer PSW-2.  We have a few and they work very well.  We use them with UPA-1P's as well as many other systems.  The are in the Concert series rather than Ultra series and have more power.  Yes, they are larger but not that much.  When they have been too tall for a particular event I have laid them down on their sides and they do okay.

Juan
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Tom Bourke

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2004, 10:25:05 pm »

All of the Bagend subs need the processor.  What sub did you use from them?  I have used the single 18 and the dual 12.  I think the dual 12 has more output and impact but the 18 goes lower.  For corpy stuff I would use a pair of dual 12.

I would also look at SPL.  They have a few subs out that are small and powerful.

Tom B
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Randy

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2004, 04:41:35 am »

I am also looking at Nexo PS10's, Yorkville NX550p, or Mackie 350 for mains. Looking for a good, lightweight sub.

JBL ?
Yorkville?
BagEnd?
Nexo?
Peavey?

Prefer sub that is lighter than 60lbs, I could use two of them.

How do the Nexo LS400 sound?

Don't really want to spend $2000 for them.

Any recommendations?
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Simon Tucker

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2004, 08:23:11 am »

Hi,

The LS400`s are great little sounding boxes considering their size and weight, although bear in mind that the dedicated processer is designed for using them with the PS8`s as top cabs as opposed to PS10`s.

The LS subs are designed to be used with a particular PS top cab; the LS400 with the PS8, LS500 with the PS10 and the LS1200 with the PS15.  When used in this way they create excellent full range systems.

Its pretty awkward to use the different subs with the different top cabs.  For instance, if you did want to use the LS400`s with the PS10`s, you would need to buy the LS400`s, a PS8TD, the PS10`s and a PS10TD, as the different cabs need their own dedicated processor.

My 0.02

Simon
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Mikael Holm (the old one)

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2004, 09:03:13 pm »

Frost wrote on Thu, 28 October 2004 22:06

I have tried Nexo subs.  sounded pretty good but really needed a BIIG poweramp to do what I wanted.  I am circuit limited in a lot of situations so I cannot carry a macro 5000.


The matching sub LS500 doesn't need MA5000/2VZ. MA2400/2 can drive it to its full output. Better yet, get some switching amplifier like lab.gruppen fp2600.

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David Buehler

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2004, 09:49:59 pm »

Since you liked the USW-1 the best but need some attenuation, why dont you just go with a USW-1P outfitted with the "looping, polarity and attenuation" module? This is a optional card that goes into the amplifier section of the sub. I dont think it costs much more than the standard module when outfitted from the factory.
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Tony Grimwood

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2004, 10:27:22 pm »

Quote:

The LS subs are designed to be used with a particular PS top cab; the LS400 with the PS8, LS500 with the PS10 and the LS1200 with the PS15. When used in this way they create excellent full range systems.

Its pretty awkward to use the different subs with the different top cabs.


Hi Simon,
FWIW, I've used LS1200 subs with PS10s (off a PS10 TD controller) with good results, and S2s with PS15s. In the latter case I used an NX241 controller - load 2.11 & onwards has the appropriate setup for PS15 & S2

Cheers,
Tony
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Randy

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2004, 11:36:36 pm »

The Nexo LS400 are the lightest sub that I have seen. If it has a good sound, clear, rather than undefined, then it would be tops. I figure that my mains will only go 120 db (with Mackie 350's) or York NX550 125db, or Nexo LS10 127db, so 2 of the LS400 should be pretty decent.

Is this the right conclusion? Do you know how much the processor costs in US $dollars.

Will my QSC PLX2402 (450watts per channel into 8 ohms) be enough for 2 subs?

Are the LS400 subs 4 ohms or 8 ohms. I could run 8ohm subs in parallel and bridge the amp for 2400 watts at 4ohms.

Also sounds like the Nexo speakers 8" 10" and 15" are very good sounding speakers? Are they similar to the JBL MPRO soundwise?

Can anyone describe the sound of the LS400 sub?

Which is a better sub, the LS500 or JBL MPro MP418S (64 lbs, 4 ohms, 1200w program, goes to 40 Hz with max SPL of 135) ?

I appreciate your knowledge and help!
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Don DeLong

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2004, 12:23:24 am »

Take a look at the KV2 Audio EX series subs.  They sound great, seem to be built very well, and are VERY loud for their size/weight.  


KV2 Audio:
http://www.kv2audio.com/ex_22.html


We recently had a demo rig with 2 EX10 mid-high packs and 2 EX2.2 subs and they were enough for the ~400 people audience at the "C" stage at a festival we recently did.  Besides haveing to contend with spill from the other 2 stages, the "C" stage was directly under a major highway bridge with 4 lanes of heavy traffic.  Even outdoors on a warm, sunny day, the passively cooled amp never so much as hinted at being stressed.

Hope this helps,
Don

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Randy

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2004, 02:37:08 am »

I always appreciate your recommendations.

I checked out the site and am reading all the info on the site about the subs.

I've heard other people recommend this sub too.

How is the lighter ES 1.5 61 lb version?

That would be alot easier on my back. ha! My back is damaged from someone rearending my van accident.
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Simon Tucker

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2004, 06:48:50 am »

Tony Grimwood wrote on Thu, 02 December 2004 03:27



Hi Simon,
FWIW, I've used LS1200 subs with PS10s (off a PS10 TD controller) with good results, and S2s with PS15s. In the latter case I used an NX241 controller - load 2.11 & onwards has the appropriate setup for PS15 & S2

Cheers,
Tony


Hi Tony,

Yes I`ve heard that people have used the sub outputs of the different Nexo controllers with subs that arent Nexo with good results.

One thing to bear in mind is that using an LS1200 with Ps10`s and a PS10TD is fairly safe, but the controller would limit early, thinking it had an LS500 connected, so you wouldnt be using the sub to its full advantage.  It is unlikely damage would occur in this situation as the LS1200 can take way more juice than the LS500.

If it was the other way round, using an LS400 with Ps10`s and a Ps10TD, this is not such a good idea as the controller will again think it has an LS500 connected when in reality it would be an LS400 - which cant take as much power.  So there would be a risk of blowing the LS400.

I am aware that with the NX241 and NX242 that you can use S2`s with PS15`s - I have Ps15`s and an NX242 and was going to get some S2`s but decided to go for the LS1200`s.

The answer would be for Nexo to program some presets in their NX242 for using different PS and LS cabs - then the limiting and dynamic EQ would be working properly for the cab.

I personally would not like to use the LS400 with the PS10`s and PS10TD as it is simply not designed to do this.  It would also invalidate the warranty of the LS400`s by using them with the PS10TD.

Simon
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Tony Grimwood

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2004, 08:22:22 pm »

Hi Simon.
This is all pretty much common sense. I know that Nexo have a "to do" list of setups for the NX241/242, and I don't think we can expect to see any patches for different PS & LS combinations anytime soon. Nexo probably would not sanction the mixing of different PS & LS devices, certainly in the case of the PS10/LS400 scenario you mention.

Randy:
Some LS400 specs
Freq. Response  43 - 120Hz +/- 3dB
Sensitivity     99dB SPL nominal, 1W @ 1m
Crossover freq. (PS8 controller) 120Hz active
Nominal impedance 6 ohms

Recommended amplifier power 300 - 700W into 4 ohms

Cheers,
Tony

Disclaimer:
I handle tech support for the New Zealand Nexo distributor. Any opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect Nexo policy, nor am I authorised to speak here on their behalf.
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Simon Tucker

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2004, 08:34:47 pm »

Hi Tony,

Yeh common sense to you and me, but not to people who dont know Nexo.

My post wasnt really aimed at you even though it may have looked like it - I know that you know what your on about from reading the Camco Vortex posts a while ago.

Just wanted to make sure no-one buys the wrong sub for the top cab thinking it would be OK when it essentially isnt.

Cheers

Simon
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Tony Grimwood

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2004, 08:44:05 pm »

Hi Simon,
I didn't imagine any offence at all from your post, and I agree that it's a good thing to let others know that all LS series subs are not necessarily interchangeable. Some things you can get away with and use to your advantage occasionally but, as always, it pays to know your gear.  Smile

cheers now,

Tony
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Mikael Holm (the old one)

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2004, 01:24:09 am »

Randy wrote on Thu, 02 December 2004 06:36

Will my QSC PLX2402 (450watts per channel into 8 ohms) be enough for 2 subs?

Are the LS400 subs 4 ohms or 8 ohms. I could run 8ohm subs in parallel and bridge the amp for 2400 watts at 4ohms.


In the first place you should take a loot at Nexo's website.

LS400 is 6ohm and PLX2402 run in stereo/parallel mode will be enough. One thing to remember is that PS8TD is stereo on the tops but mono on subs.

Quote:

Also sounds like the Nexo speakers 8" 10" and 15" are very good sounding speakers? Are they similar to the JBL MPRO soundwise?


Nexo is in totally different league. In the States i believe PS15 to cost 3-4 times or even more compared to MPro 415.

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Randy

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2004, 05:32:43 am »

Well, I have never heard such a good speaker, outside of a recording studio.

If it costs 3-4 times as much, is it twice as good of a speaker than the Yorkville NX750, or the MP 15" ?

Obviously, it can handle alot of DB without breaking up. I just spoke to a Nexo rep. He also does SR. and said they brought 2 sp10's and LS500 sub for NY? philharmonic. People were shocked because they were such a small system, but blown away by the sound.

The question, is not if I would love such a good system, but whether I could afford it, and if it was worth the price of 3 or 4 lesser quality systems.

I did a in debth listen to my Yorkville Pulse 110s sub 10" 200 watts, and discovered, when I turned off the mains, that it was missing various notes. ie. It would play certain frequencies, but totally drop off other frequiencies (not just the bottom end, but throughout the sub's 50-100 hz.

Another thing that I discovered, was that I had a 80hz lowcut on my Yamaha mixer, and when I turned it on, it did not affect the sub at all, which means that the sub did not even go down to 80hz.

Also, the sound was whoofy, not round and clear. More geared towards kick, instead of bass. After that, I listened to the JBL SRX 718s at a local store, and could hear that it played all of the bass notes fairly evenly, which means that it is much flatter.

If the MPro 418s sounds similar, but just not quite as loud, or as low. (34hz-SRX, 40hz-MPro), I would prefer the MPro for the 62lbs weight vs. the 79lbs-SRX.
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Mikael Holm (the old one)

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2004, 12:33:38 pm »

Randy wrote on Sat, 04 December 2004 12:32

If it costs 3-4 times as much, is it twice as good of a speaker than the Yorkville NX750, or the MP 15" ?


Okay, i just saw a quote of MP415 going for 550 USD or such. PS15 is more like 2500-3000 Euros here depending where one buys them. So they probably are about 5-6 times worth the money you would spend on MP415.

PS. Many people think they are worth the price Smile

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Simon Tucker

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Re: Sub Choices
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2004, 12:58:54 pm »

Hmm,

Myself being one of them .... agree 100% - they are awesome; even without subs they defy belief!  I have 2 LS1200`s too and have so far not needed to use more than one! (Not had them long though)  I have 3 (real) gigs next week where I`ll be using both the subs - I find myself looking forward to the next room, to see how good it sounds in there!

Although here in the Uk the price difference isnt as radical;
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