Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hansel Anasarias]

okay cool...so use the inserts. (and not pre mic-pre)

Last part to this question...

(Group compressing)
1. Is it recommended at all, to compress a group, such as 3 BGV's, or our 2 guitars?  

(Compression as a whole)
2. Is it recommended to compress everything in general? ... even if just a little?  the reason why i'm asking is because, i'm working on a first draft budget on some the gear we'll be purchasing, which also includes processing type units, and cables etc.  

(PA Management Systems)
3.  Does anyone use a specific PA managemnet system to control their system?  A couple examples of ones that I've been reading information about are the dbx Driverack, or the Behringer DCX 2496 and others, but those are the lower price range ones that I have seen.  Any thoughts on these, or ones that you are actually using?  

Thanks again,
-Hansel.

[Mike Galica]

contacthansel wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 11:30

(Group compressing) 1. Is it recommended at all, to compress a group, such as 3 BGV's, or our 2 guitars?

I quite often compress my vocal groups together since its all basically the same.  I wouldn't ordinarily compress guitars,

Quote:

2. Is it recommended to compress everything in general? ... even if just a little?  the reason why i'm asking is because, i'm working on a first draft budget on some the gear we'll be purchasing, which also includes processing type units, and cables etc.

I'm a firm believer in not compressing the whole mix unless you're talking speaker protection.  But that's a whole different idea.  One of the inherent downsides to compressing everything that when, for example, the bass guitar is playing, the overall mix level can go down.

Quote:

3.  Does anyone use a specific PA managemnet system to control their system?  A couple examples of ones that I've been reading information about are the dbx Driverack, or the Behringer DCX 2496 and others, but those are the lower price range ones that I have seen.  Any thoughts on these, or ones that you are actually using?

I use a DRPA, and while it has its uses don't get one unless you can afford a 260.  It's more expensive but defiantly worth the added features.  There's posts all over the place about comparing the two.

[Bob Currier]

We don't normally compress anything.  Compressing and gating are two things that can help you if you know what you're doing or really screw things up if you don't.  Since we use a lot of different people in our tech rotation, we don't because it would be a lot to ask of those folks.

My experience is compressing vocals as a group is okay.  In a perfect world you'd tweak every channel individually, but that isn't always practical.

If you haven't already, buy yourself a copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Davis and Jones.  You can find it on Amazon for about $20.  It has a some really good sections on compression, using gates and other processors.

--bc

[Dan Costello]

It's odd - when I run sound at clubs, I usually compress the vocals as a whole buss (typically because I'm limited in my number of compressors) and it sounds fine - good, even.

But when I do that at church, it sounds aweful. I don't know if it's the inconsistency of the church singers or the fact that the clubs are a lot smaller (~230 standing capacity club vs. 600 seated capacity church) and stage volume plays a bigger factor in the overall sound.

-Dan.

[Hansel Anasarias]

BC & Dan,

Good points, volunteers need to know how to use the gear properly in order for it to be beneficial.  Maybe we'll set up general levels for the compressor(s), and group signals together for an overall compress, just for the saftety of controlling peaking signals.  Keeping in mind that not all operators have the same level of understanding when it comes to holding it down at the sound board. (if that makes sense)

Hmm... i guess thats it.

TTYL,
-Hansel

[Mike Slay]

Tips on running Monitors from FOH.  

I just thought I'd give you some ideas on how I go about mixing Monitors from FOH.  I opperate a small sound company and 95% of the time that's what I do.

1. Monitors can become a very phsychological game with musicians.  You have to guess at what they want in most situations.  Remember things can and often do sound very different on opposite sides of the stacks.  The musicians will judge you as an engineer on the monitor mix they hear.  Time allowing, the best way to judge a monitor mix is to actually stand on stage next to the musician during the playing portion of sound check.  And the most important thing is to communicate.  Try to get to a level that a musician can approach you in a logical, rational manor.  It's so much better to be told the guitar is drowning out everything than to just be told I can't hear anything.

2.  Gain Structure.  Gain Structure.  Gain Structure.  Often times I see other engineers who come from a recording background start backwards.  If your running Monitors from FOH it is imperative to have unity gain coming from the pre-amps.  During the line check portion of your sound check you should PFL each channel.  With head phones you can confirm you are getting a good clean signal.  I've seen foolish engineers deny use of head phones for this purpose.  Your not mixing with them, they are just a tool to check for buzzes and anomallies.  Then before you even bring the first fader or aux send up using the meter to adjust the gain until it read in the -3 to +3 range depending on personal taste and what not.  From this point bring up the fader and EQ the channel to taste in the FOH.  Once you're satisfied pull the fader out and begin work on the monitor mixes.  For most situations I try to have the entire group on stage and try to bring each channel into the individual mixes as the performers request.  It sounds complex but this is a fool proof method for ensuring you can crank those monitors when the talent needs them.  The overall goal is to not touch the pre-amp trim once the show starts.  Any time you move the gain knob you affect all mixes there by defeating the purpose of using a pre-fader aux.  If you don't follow this procedure the likely scenerio is something like this you've done line check and the band starts off.  The music is cranking but you don't have enough vocal even with the fader all the way up so you bump the gain to bring the vocal channel.  Well all of te sudden you've got vocals in FOH going but then you also got feedback from the wedges because in turning up the gain you've also turned up that mic in all the wedges that  were already on the edge of feedback.  Extreme example but if you prepare for the extreme then the ordinary is cake.

3.  No rules.  The afore mentioned is an approach method not the one and only way.  One exception to the rule I generally note is you usually don't need overheads and hat mics in wedge mixes.  So I'll usually put those faders at unity and bring up the gain slowly to where the over heads are at the level I want in the FOH mix.

[Hansel Anasarias]

Hey all...

after moving in, our Pastor decided to remodel the stage ASAP. In the next couple of weeks, our stage will be torn down and remodeled into something more modern, and usable.  The design is still tentative.

As of now, we are awaiting contruction and have just a basic setup for our sound system.  We're using a Behringer SL board, some Yamaha speakers on stands, QSC amps, community and fender monitors, and various instruments and such.

Right now our setup is:

Keyboard - mic'd
Lead singer
3 BGV
1 acoustic guitar - DI'd main
1 Electric guit. - amp only
1 Bass guit. - amp only
Drum kit - not mic'd
Lapel Mic
Pulpit Mic
---------------------------------------

We only have 1 monitor mix.  After the remodeling we'll have at least 2.  I'm pushing for 3, but i don't think it will happen.  And...we are still looking for speakers/subs to purchase for FOH.  

I'm going to be training some volunteers within the next couple weeks on basic sound/mixing techniques.  As of now I still have a good amount of difficulties/frustration trying to piece everything together and have the "in-charge" people understand that sound is such an integral part of the worship service as a whole.  But... things seem to be turning out okay.  

Thanks to all for your input.
-Hansel

[Dan Costello]

Mike Slay wrote on Sun, 12 September 2004 01:39

2.  Gain Structure.  Gain Structure.  Gain Structure.  Often times I see other engineers who come from a recording background start backwards.  If your running Monitors from FOH it is imperative to have unity gain coming from the pre-amps.  During the line check portion of your sound check you should PFL each channel.  With head phones you can confirm you are getting a good clean signal.  I've seen foolish engineers deny use of head phones for this purpose.  Your not mixing with them, they are just a tool to check for buzzes and anomallies.  Then before you even bring the first fader or aux send up using the meter to adjust the gain until it read in the -3 to +3 range depending on personal taste and what not.  From this point bring up the fader and EQ the channel to taste in the FOH.  Once you're satisfied pull the fader out and begin work on the monitor mixes.  For most situations I try to have the entire group on stage and try to bring each channel into the individual mixes as the performers request.  It sounds complex but this is a fool proof method for ensuring you can crank those monitors when the talent needs them.  The overall goal is to not touch the pre-amp trim once the show starts.  Any time you move the gain knob you affect all mixes there by defeating the purpose of using a pre-fader aux.  If you don't follow this procedure the likely scenerio is something like this you've done line check and the band starts off.  The music is cranking but you don't have enough vocal even with the fader all the way up so you bump the gain to bring the vocal channel.  Well all of te sudden you've got vocals in FOH going but then you also got feedback from the wedges because in turning up the gain you've also turned up that mic in all the wedges that  were already on the edge of feedback.  Extreme example but if you prepare for the extreme then the ordinary is cake.

I've never understood why people set all the faders to unity and then mix with the gain knobs. I'm pretty new at this, so I wondered if maybe there was some old road dog trick I didn't know about. You say that this may come from starting out in recording - I don't know man, getting a good, hot signal into the board was step 1 of day 1 in recording class. (well, ok, maybe step 3. Step 1 was how to wrap a cable, step 2 was how not to break stuff)

I try to do it exactly like you describe - set the trim at the beginning and leave it. I usually only wind up adjusting it when everybody starts playing 50x louder during the show than they did during soundcheck and all my preamps are clipping.

My kick drums sound still blows, though.  

-Dan.

[Hansel Anasarias]

Come to think of it....
our board will only do 2 monitor mixes.  I guess we're stuck.  Oh well.

-hansel

[Tim Padrick]

Seriously consider building the stage so that the sub(s) can be placed under the front center.  There are a number of good boxes that are only 22.5" (truck pack dimension).  But don't leave the entire area open under there.  Build a wall around the subs area.  If you make the area 8.5' wide and 4.5' deep, it will hold a pair of labs, which is the largest thing you'll likely ever need.  The extra space around whatever you end up with can be filled will foam or fiberglass so you don't have any nasty resonances.

[ProSoundWeb Community]