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Author Topic: B12 Subwoofer  (Read 10421 times)

Wayne Parham

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2004, 02:41:54 PM »

Yes, but the whole problem is that the vent will be in the throat, which may produce noises if something isn't done to vent it out of the throat.  I don't expect that pressure under the voice coil cover will affect symmetry, because the same pressure differential exists in either cone direction.  The main cause of asymmetry is flux modulation, which is what shorting rings and the push-pull arrangement are used to correct. But in any case, the mechanism for dealing with asymmetries in this design, whether pneumatic, mechanical or electrical, is the push-pull plenum, so it's not a concern in this configuration like it would be in other loudspeaker systems.

You know that many loudspeakers aren't vented, so the air is trapped under the voice coil cover.  Venting to atmosphere is pneumatically similar, in that the pressures aren't equal.  Without a vent, pressure is greater on the inside of the voice coil than outside.  I would expect that the pressure difference in this condition is much greater than it would be from ducting to the atmosphere, because the area behind the voice coil cover is so small.

If the vent is ducted out of the cabinet, there will be only atmospheric pressure under the voice coil cover and the area surrounding will be subjected to whatever pressure the cone generates in the box.  There will be a difference in pressure, but it will provide more effective voice coil cooling too.  So my thinking is that it might be a very good solution and certainly worth trying.  If it works, it may solve a power handling problem as well as reducing distortion because there will be better cooling available to the voice coil.
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Wayne Parham
π Speakers
PiSpeakers.com

Brad Litz

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2004, 03:34:38 PM »

Yes, the pressure concerns are probably minor, however, I would check to be sure that there is no air leak out through the external vent passage from the horn throat or back chamber.
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Brad Litz

Wayne Parham

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2004, 03:56:27 PM »

Agreed.  Fortunately, the hoses, clamps and pipe fittings are good to hundreds of PSI, like brake lines require.  It's way more than required for making a good seal for somthing like this, where we might be dealing with 15 to 20 PSI.
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Wayne Parham
π Speakers
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Brad Litz

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2004, 04:40:41 PM »

I was thinking more along the lines of leak paths through the driver itself. Maybe through the spyder material. The spyder normally does not have to seal the magnet vent from the back chamber (or throat volume).
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Brad Litz

Wayne Parham

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2004, 09:27:42 PM »

I think there will be some communication through the gap.  I don't think it will hold static pressure.  But I think the question will be at what point does the restriction become lossy enough to matter.  So the way I'm going to handle this, I think, is to test it and see.  I'd like to know if venting to the outside is a good idea or not.
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Wayne Parham
π Speakers
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Brad Litz

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2004, 10:59:05 PM »

I agree, a test is the way to go. A simple test with a sealed enclosure should work fine.
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Brad Litz

Mark Seaton

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2004, 08:36:23 PM »

Wayne Parham wrote on Sun, 07 November 2004 20:27

I think there will be some communication through the gap.  I don't think it will hold static pressure.  But I think the question will be at what point does the restriction become lossy enough to matter.  So the way I'm going to handle this, I think, is to test it and see.  I'd like to know if venting to the outside is a good idea or not.


I do suggest you test this.  I would expect such a venting connection will not only form two significant leaks in the system, but also add to the asymmetry you were trying to reduce by having a dynamically variable leak with respect to driver excursion and many other factors.  Worse yet, on one driver there will be a leak into the sealed rear chamber, where the other driver will leak from the high pressure, throat area, resulting in more asymmetry.

The basket employed in the LAB12 driver is vented under the spider and in fact isn't all that different from drivers others have developed specifically for dipole use (see Adire Audio's DPL-12).  So far as additional cooling, I think you are giving more credit to the head conductivity from the voice coil to static air.  Many have employed interesting methods where driver excursion results in increased airflow and cooling, but this is opposite from what is needed.  The most thermal dissipation occurs at frequencies of minimum excursion, and a horn seeks to reduce excursion vs. resulting SPL.  In your own forum there was mention of forced air cooling, which does indeed work quite well to nearly double thermal capacity.  Tom Danley’s patent for an “Air Cooled Loudspeaker” has been employed in all horn loaded ServoDrive products for more than 15 years, and at one time was licensed to another manufacturer employing it on conventional drivers.

I applaud your interest in a free, public design like this, but I do think many overestimate the failures vs. the numbers in use.  From what I have seen, the large percentage of failures have been over-excursion, especially when a pair or fewer are used, and the others seem to predominantly be from early runs of drivers where it appears a percentage of the drivers had specific points of failure.  The original interest in a shorting ring appears to have concluded the same as the original suspicion that such a change would be best approached as re-design, not a retrofit.  Of course a shorting ring or sleeve would not have had a significant impact on the thermal capacity or excursion limits.  Sure, a better driver could be produced if there were enough interest and the demand to pay for it.  In all the measurements I have seen thus far, distortion is quite low to at least 30Hz, where the driver doesn’t drop to the performance of a pure, direct radiator until the low 20s.  Even as a direct radiator the LAB12 driver is no slouch, again where we see significant efforts required to make major improvements.  Remembering that the driver has to still fit within the LAB sub’s design, we see this isn’t a trivial task.

There is always room for some improvement if we have a better definition of the design goals.  If we feel we really need more capability I welcome you to take part in this forum and work through a design process with predictions for a design of improved performance.  Post some sketches of the specific design and I’m sure there are enough interested parties here who would love to take on a new project so it could be built and compared to the LAB.  
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Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
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Wayne Parham

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2004, 05:45:46 AM »

Regarding my proposed subwoofer design, I would have prefered to have a better driver made to retrofit existing systems using the LAB12.  I asked Eminence to work on such a design, called the "B12."  It would have been easier for some people to implement, because people that already have LABhorns could have upgraded to the improved driver.  It was sort of a way to have cake and eat it too.

But there are other ways to accomplish the same thing.  The proposed design is a way to improve symmetry using existing drivers.  And I am realizing that there are probably some benefits to this push-pull plenum design, particularly since two drivers are used anyway.  If only one driver is used, then a shorting ring is the only way to improve symmetry.  But when two drivers are used, the push-pull plenum becomes an attractive possibility.  And it looks like it will work at a much lower frequency, which is indeed important for a bass system.

One thing is certain, and that is Eminence made a good driver at a good price.  They are able to make the existing LAB12 driver very inexpensively.  That is good, and is one of its most attractive points.  It does provide a lot for the money.  What surprised me is that it must have taken them a lot of engineering time, and I would have expected some of these other things wouldn't have been more than pennies added to the cost.  But now that the ball has been rolling for quite some time, maybe the momentum keeps it rolling.

After asking Eminence to work on an improved driver, I realized that maybe I was looking at this the wrong way.  The reduction in distortion from a push-pull plenum might very well be better than using an improved driver with flux control, and occur much lower in frequency.  That's the problem with shorting rings;  It's hard to get reduction of distortion down low.  So it might be a better deal to design a horn with a push-pull plenum.

The acid test will be in the measurements.

As for your concerns about pneumatic asymmetry, there again, the tests will show one way or another.  But putting pencil to paper, it appears that both sides are equal.  The vent of one driver will face the throat and the other will face the rear chamber.

The rear chamber vents with restriction from one driver and the throat plenum vents with restriction from the other driver.  Both sides have the same size vent, so I don't expect asymmetry from that.

Both rear areas will be connected to form a common rear chamber, so the pressure in that common chamber will be the same.  That is the place where sealed tuning is most relevant.  

Horns can be configured with vented or open rear chambers.  The larger the rear chamber is, the lower the motor system resonant frequency is.  Making the rear chamber very small is a way to raise this resonance to boost output near horn cutoff.

Excursion is reduced in the passband of the horn.  Below that, the main thing that limits excursion is the motor and the rear chamber.  At frequencies below horn cutoff, the system acts very much like a direct radiator.  So at low frequencies under horn cutoff, the horn and front chamber can be likened to a psuedo-bandpass system and the rear chamber can be seen as a sealed or vented loudspeaker system, depending on its configuration.

Tests will show for sure, but I suspect that the ducted cooling vent will have little effect on tuning.  What little effect there is can be compensated for with slight resizing, if necessary.  I think the cooling vent will prove to be a benefit, with no real losses.  We will see.

Concerning the loudspeaker vent's ability to cool, it can be likened to a reciprocating compressor pump without valves.  The air in the vent is pumped back and forth rather than valved so that it will cause flow.  So naturally, if power levels are high and the cone is held rigid, the cooling effect is greatly reduced.  Horns reduce excursion, so this tends to make the cooling vent less effective.  If excursion is high enough to purge a large slug of air each half-cycle, it stands a better chance to draw in a blast of cool air.  But even this is stymied if the chamber it vents into is small and easily heated.

The proposed solution relies on two things.  One is ducting the vent to cool outside air and the other is to valve the pump so that it actually works as a pump.  We aren't looking at moving valves or vanes, so the valves will not "seal."  But they should impede flow in one direction more than the other enough to induce unidirectional flow.  Using fixed flow valves, we hope to cause the pump to actually move cool air through the system rather than simply vibrating a slug of hot air back and forth within the loudspeaker vent.  If it can be made even marginally more efficient as an air pump, it will probably go a long way towards keeping the voice coil cool.  What makes me think it will probably work well is that it shouldn't be too hard to beat the performance of an unvalved reciprocating pump operating in a small sealed chamber.

As for overall symmetry, the biggest offender is magnetic, not pneumatic or mechanical.  The push-pull plenum will correct for this.  Since the arrangement is designed specifically to address the fact that one driver is stronger than the other on each half-cycle, I think it will work well to counteract asymmetry using complementary pairs.  This will counteract any asymmetry, whether the cause be magnetic, mechanical or pneumatic, and it should work very well at low frequency up to and beyond the upper limit of the horn.

Don't forget that each driver is already asymmetrical.  The LAB12 driver does not have any mechanism to reduce flux modulation.  Most drivers don't.  Any speaker with a ferrite magnet that doesn't contain a shorting ring will suffer from this effect to some degree.  The fact that both drivers are connected to pressurize from the face means that whatever asymmetry is present from each driver is doubled.  Turning one around is a way to address this.

The push-pull plenum is pretty straightforward, and really should be expected to work.  The venting is a little more esoteric, I suppose, but I don't think anyone should be scared off by the fact.  I think it is important to remember that horns can be configured to run with open rear chambers, and that the closed back chamber is there primarily to boost output near the flare frequency.

Most users that push 'em hard use high-pass filters to protect the system below the flare frequency, so I don't think that unloading at very low single digit frequencies will be a deal-breaker.  If we find that the ducted vent provides significantly improved power handling in the passband at the expense of reduced ability below say 5Hz, I think that will be excellent.  I hope this is what we find.  We'll see.
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Wayne Parham
π Speakers
PiSpeakers.com

Mark Seaton

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2004, 01:09:02 PM »

Wayne Parham wrote on Mon, 15 November 2004 04:45


Tests will show for sure, but I suspect that the ducted cooling vent will have little effect on tuning.  What little effect there is can be compensated for with slight resizing, if necessary.  I think the cooling vent will prove to be a benefit, with no real losses.  We will see.

The push-pull plenum is pretty straightforward, and really should be expected to work.  The venting is a little more esoteric, I suppose, but I don't think anyone should be scared off by the fact.  I think it is important to remember that horns can be configured to run with open rear chambers, and that the closed back chamber is there primarily to boost output near the flare frequency.



Hi Wayne,

I have no doubt that an opposed driver mounting could be beneficial if front and rear chambers are common.  This should be noticable and measureable, remembering that the distortion is pretty low to begin with.  While the push-pull mounting could offer some benefit it will be interesting to see how that can be configured for easy construction.  I differ in oppinion on the pole venting idea, as I suspect the leaks and losses (which will affect mechanical Q's in the system, not so much tuning) will trump any benefits, which I suspect to be modest.

Some sawdust and testing will have to be the final determinants.
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Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." - Daniel H. Burnham

Wayne Parham

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Re: B12 Subwoofer
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2004, 06:54:43 PM »

The front and rear chamber is configured like any other horn.  It has a sealed rear chamber, a front chamber, throat and horn flare.

As for mechanical Q of the rear chamber, that is part of system tuning.  A resonant system can be described by its resonant frequency and its Q.

I am confident that the push-pull plenum will reduce distortion.  Others have used it with success;  It's a pretty reliable mechanism for reducing distortion.

As for venting, think of it this way:  What I propose is to make the vent actually work as a cool air pump instead of simply pushing a warm air slug back and forth inside a small rear chamber.

Please see my illustrations in the post called "Loudspeaker Venting and Cooling Techniques."

I don't think the cooling vent seal will be a problem, but if the seal must be perfect, there is a mechanism to address this.  I'll test to know which is required.  If the rear chamber must be perfectly sealed, here is a way to do it.

I should have the first tests done within the month.  Watch the Pi Speakers forum for details.
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Wayne Parham
π Speakers
PiSpeakers.com

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