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Author Topic: Live 5.1 and digico consoles  (Read 3218 times)

110dbmichael

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Live 5.1 and digico consoles
« on: September 08, 2004, 05:52:07 pm »

I just wanted to see what kind of comments anyone had for running 5.1 surround live on digico D5's. I am getting ready for a small tour with an act in the southeast, and its been discussed using a Digico D1 (not yet released) and it apparently will operate off of the same software and have a very similar interface and having not worked on a D5 I thought some input from some users (if any) would be a good Idea.

anyone... anyone...
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live concerts in 5.1 surround is fun!!!

Mac Kerr

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Re: Live 5.1 and digico consoles
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2004, 07:39:12 pm »

I hope this isn't an act where you have to do a lot of active mixing of many inputs. As far as I know the D001 only has one 8 fader bay of input faders. There are 6 layers of those 8 faders. There is a little more room between the master section and the groups because the transport controls are there. It seems like a pretty specialized console, why did you chose it?

if you are thinking of A) mixing a live show in 5.1 surround, and B) planning to use a digital console you have no familiarity with, you need to get somewhere where you can get some seat time on a D5. I mix almost exclusively on digital consoles, and I have spent the last 3 days learning the D5, and I don't know enough yet to take it into a theater.

Mac Kerr
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Ken Freeman

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5.1 in in the PA...not so easy
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2004, 11:43:07 pm »

Interesting.  I look after a number of Surround shows and we have gone back-wards so that we have more control.  I run most of the events through a Soundcraft Series 5M 32 buss monitor console. We build two sets of "stems" and then put these out via the Matrix section of the console.  In addition to mixing a band, We create 2 complete sets of 5.1 mixes and use 12 busses just for that. Eight additional auxes are used to export various instrument feeds to a surround mixer station which is then, really part of the show.  When you add a couple of FX sends, some front fill and a generic Stereo downmix the darn thing is pretty much full.

Without a great deal of rehearsal and time to tweak, I think attempting this on a digital control platform that you are not familiar with might be a real challenge.  I suggest you take the analog approach and then figure out how to automate the show as you have time to explore what works and what does not.

I am also interested in how you will approach the speaker positioning and placement.  It seems easy on paper, but is much more difficult to make work in the real world.

Ken
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Live 5.1 why bother?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2004, 12:27:14 am »

Hello 110-

I'm not bustin' on you in particular, but have to keeps asking the question:  will the madness ever stop? Shocked

I can understand extreme localization of sound(s), particularly in theatrical production, where multiple, single-source speaker systems are employed.

I expect such localization for concept, art-rock artists like Pink Floyd or The Who.  20 year old live quad...

I cringe that the next freakin' artist advance will start with the question "you can do 5.1, right?  We need the back channels for ambience..."

How does 5.1 fit in musically, or in the theatrical presentation of your artist?  I'm not being a dick, I really want to know...It's gotta be very interesting, importatant, or "pretty" to merit the effort and expense that this will require... so, can you tell this curmudgeonly system tech "why..."  Most of the shows we provide for are either "extreme stereo" where things are panned to make the recording (the one the mixer boy has to make every night, and it better sound right on the bus, dammit....) sound good, or the "dual zoned mono" approach where panning is minimal or even corrective.  It seems to me, as a regional provider, that most of the shows we do would not benefit from a 5.1 reproducing arrangement (unless the Artiste wanted a 5.1 mix in the back lounge of the Prevost...).

I've done stacks and racks for what amounted to a 5.1 video playback for a corporate.  The video guys sent me "problem child" audio... and insisted that our stuff was wired wrong, or blown.  I tracked the problem down to 2 of the 5 signals being out of polarity.  I don't know how it got that way, but I was demonstrating the fix to the video boys (in front of the client) while they were trying to blame audio.... the commercial DVD's 5.1 sounded fine, their's didn't.  The "big" playback event was also edited down (on site) from 11 minutes to around 3 minutes.  It was the only thing that used the 5.1, and it cost thousands of extra dollars to implement.  None of the executives in attendence seemed to notice the surround, nobody commented on it.

And "ditto" to the things that Ken and Mac had to say about consoles, learning curves, and pre-planning.  The learning and rehearsal/programing curves may intersect sooner than you might like.

So is your band planning some spectacular theatrics?  Could be fun, could just be a pain in the ass.....

Tim Mc
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110dbmichael

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Re: Live 5.1 and digico consoles
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2004, 10:49:05 am »

well first (and I will have to come back to answer all) orginally this tour was going to be done using a DM2000 (which it very well may still be) but I was approached by Digico about using the D1...  which is where that came from, to the best of my knowledge the digico interface is rather easy, and much more simple that the Yamaha, so I figured the learning curve not to be anythign all that special, I learned to use the Yamaha DM1000 i about 5 min and was in love with it in about 7 min...

for speaker positioning I will be flying a front and rear truss due to the majority of the venues being small theatres they will be ground support trusses, the main will suspen off of a Applied 25' Mini tower and the rears will be supported off Applied 16' cranks... later I suppose I can up load my floor plot.... more to come
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live concerts in 5.1 surround is fun!!!

Mac Kerr

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Re: Live 5.1 and digico consoles
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2004, 11:38:23 am »

110dbmichael wrote on Thu, 09 September 2004 10:49

well first (and I will have to come back to answer all) orginally this tour was going to be done using a DM2000 (which it very well may still be) but I was approached by Digico about using the D1...  which is where that came from, to the best of my knowledge the digico interface is rather easy, and much more simple that the Yamaha, so I figured the learning curve not to be anythign all that special, I learned to use the Yamaha DM1000 i about 5 min and was in love with it in about 7 min...
If you are familiar with the Yamaha DM interface you will not automatically be immediately comfortable on a Digico. I have been using DM2000 almost exclusively for the last 2 years, as I said earlier I have been learning the D5T theater console for the last few days. Since it has basically the same interface as the D1 (D01? D001?) it will likely have more mix buses than a DM2000. If the 8 group 12 aux layout of DM2000 is enough, it may be easier for you to stick with what you know. Both consoles will use a lot of buses for surround, both will have one joystick for surround panning, both will have transport controls, The Digico will have more eq, more auxes, DCA's, MADI coax connection to mic pres if you need to put them at the stage, more menus needed, more layers needed, more money needed. The DM2000 has very good mic pres, better than PM1D until the release of the new PM1D mic pres. The Digico has very good mic pres. While it seems to be excepted that the D5 has better mic pres than the PM1D, I don't know how they compare to DM2000. Since the theater version software is different than the D5 Live software as far as writing scenes, I don't know how the D01 will compare to DM2000 for scene automation or timecode slave/master.

Mac Kerr
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110dbmichael

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Re: Live 5.1 why bother?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2004, 05:19:24 pm »

Tim McCulloch

I expect such localization for concept, art-rock artists like Pink Floyd or The Who.  20 year old live quad...


the act is Perpetual Groove www.pgroove.com and they are best described as Trance Arena rock here is a sample of the music this is an audience recording (and a damn good one at that) the intro is long and the the music doesn't really start until about 2:20 with it really kicking in around 5min... think Talking Heads meets Pink Floyd meets King Crimson

http://www.archive.org/download/pgroove2004-05-26.flac16/pgr oove2004-05-26d2t01_vbr.mp3
...forgot about the Phaser in the overhead effect I started doing on this tune that night.

listen and it will all make sense here is some more that are from the desk one with volcals the other not (the 2nd is a personal fave:

http://www.archive.org/download/pgroove2004-05-29.flac16/pgr oove2004-05-29d1t03_vbr.mp3

http://www.archive.org/download/pgroove2004-05-29.flac16/pgr oove2004-05-29d3t02_vbr.mp3 <-- long intro actual tune starts @ 3:55 good drum solo starting ~15:00

Tim McCulloch


I cringe that the next freakin' artist advance will start with the question "you can do 5.1, right?  We need the back channels for ambience..."


Ha!!!

Tim McCulloch


How does 5.1 fit in musically, or in the theatrical presentation of your artist?  I'm not being a dick, I really want to know...It's gotta be very interesting, importatant, or "pretty" to merit the effort and expense that this will require... so, can you tell this curmudgeonly system tech "why..."  Most of the shows we provide for are either "extreme stereo" where things are panned to make the recording (the one the mixer boy has to make every night, and it better sound right on the bus, dammit....) sound good, or the "dual zoned mono" approach where panning is minimal or even corrective.  It seems to me, as a regional provider, that most of the shows we do would not benefit from a 5.1 reproducing arrangement (unless the Artiste wanted a 5.1 mix in the back lounge of the Prevost...).


don't think you are being a dick... your statements are in line with that of a system tech, and I would sound the same but listen and the application will surface... I am excited to apart of this as the FOH guy as it will really define the artistic elements of sound mixing and system engineering, as a craft beyond the normal 'reinforcement' approach we usually take with sound.

Tim McCulloch


And "ditto" to the things that Ken and Mac had to say about consoles, learning curves, and pre-planning.  The learning and rehearsal/programing curves may intersect sooner than you might like.

So is your band planning some spectacular theatrics?  Could be fun, could just be a pain in the ass.....

Tim Mc


well it is final the DM2000 is the console on this tour and yes we will have 2 days of rehearsal...

Michael

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live concerts in 5.1 surround is fun!!!

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Re: Live 5.1 why bother?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2004, 05:19:24 pm »


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