ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Delay Question - Please Help Me  (Read 10838 times)

Josh Billings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 949
    • http://www.mindboxmedia.com/soundsystem
Delay Question - Please Help Me
« on: July 25, 2004, 11:44:59 PM »

I have a Drive Rack PA (need to stick w/ it (can't upgrade no $$$$)

I have CV V-253 Dual 15" cabinets. I cross over the mix @ 80 hz and i don't think the DRPA delay goes far enough.

WHAT IF... I move the CV top cabinets back like 2' towards the back of the cabinet, would that solve my problems??

ANybody else solve their problems this way??

P.S. Any hints/tips for using them the first time? I'm only using 1 a side OR putting 2 together on the left hand side.(Might do that) I can't put them in the center because the DJ is in the center of the room and he's on the floor (no stage)

-Josh
Logged

Too Tall (Curtis H. List)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1591
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2004, 01:40:19 PM »

Josh wrote on Sun, 25 July 2004 23:44

I have a Drive Rack PA (need to stick w/ it (can't upgrade no $$$$)

I have CV V-253 Dual 15" cabinets. I cross over the mix @ 80 hz and i don't think the DRPA delay goes far enough.

WHAT IF... I move the CV top cabinets back like 2' towards the back of the cabinet, would that solve my problems??



Considering that the DR-PA has only 10ms of delay and you have nothing else to use that is exactly what I would do.

BTW, Do you have to run stereo?
If you are running mono you could run the output from the DRPA for the CV speakers back through the second input and have another 10ms of delay to use.

Josh wrote on Sun, 25 July 2004 23:44


ANybody else solve their problems this way??



No, I just always figured that is what I would do if I found myself in the same spot. I've done it before 20 years ago when all this fancy DSP hardware didn't exist. In that case it was a community 15" straight horn (FRC/B) that was about 3' deep time aligned to a 2" exit high frequency horn

Josh wrote on Sun, 25 July 2004 23:44


P.S. Any hints/tips for using them the first time? I'm only using 1 a side OR putting 2 together on the left hand side.(Might do that) I can't put them in the center because the DJ is in the center of the room and he's on the floor (no stage)




Well even if you had a DSP with more then enough delay things get pretty complicated depending on the xover filters you use. The best way to figure out where you are for sure is find someone near you with Praxis or Smaart and hire them to go through your system one time. Next best is spend some money on an FFT analyzer yourself (about $139.00 for the cheapest one I know of).
Too Tall

-Josh[/quote]

Logged
Too Tall
        Curtis H. List    
             Bridgeport, Mich.   
        I.A.T.S.E. Local # 274 (Gold Card)
        Lansing, Mich
Independent Live Sound Engineer (and I'm Tall Too!)

Josh Billings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 949
    • http://www.mindboxmedia.com/soundsystem
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2004, 08:27:51 PM »

So how many Ms should i TECHNICALLY use to delay my tops.

-Josh
Logged

Peter Morris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 705
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2004, 03:32:11 AM »

FWIW The CV V-253 is a reflex box so it will have some delay at low frequencies, ie. at the box tunning frequency the port will cause a phase shift of –180 degrees.  As a guess, this will translate to about 5 to 6 ms of delay at 80 hz (based on a typical double 15 box tunned to 40hz). Soooo you will only need 6 to 7 ms of delay for your subs.  This assumes the delays associated with your crossover selection are the same for the HP and LP. eg LR filters.

Peter
Logged

Peter Morris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 705
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2004, 08:23:26 PM »

OOpppps - brain fart... when I said you will need 6 or 7 ms for your subs, what I meant is you will need 6 or 7 ms of delay on your tops to align with your subs.

BTW EAW make a 10 foot horn and the alignment setting they suggest is about this.

Peter
Logged

Douglas R. Allen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 776
    • http://-
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2004, 09:10:43 PM »

Peter wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 03:32

FWIW The CV V-253 is a reflex box so it will have some delay at low frequencies, ie. at the box tunning frequency the port will cause a phase shift of
Logged
Allen Audio

"The worst thing is."
"You can't teach common sense."

Peter Morris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 705
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2004, 01:28:19 AM »

I assume the Drive Rack was being used for both the LP and HP crossover. If you use a 24 dB per octave Linkwitz Riley crossover the two outputs are actually "in phase" at all frequencies. That is, even though the filters have their own characteristic phase responses the phase difference between the two output signals is the same at all frequencies. As a result, each filter section has the same group delay.
The delay caused by the crossover filter function and processing time of the DSPs will be the same for both, the only thing that is different is the phase response of each speaker box and the different path lengths.
 
The math as per your example
11.5 + 3.5 + 7 = 21 … sub
5 (caused by the reflex design @ 80hz) + 3.5 + 7 = 15.5 … top box

Difference between them is 5.5 ms  … so you delay the tops an additional 5.5 ms in your digital crossover, maybe a bit more because the natural roll off caused by the enclosure behind the 2 x 12s in the sub will cause a little frequency dependant delay. It will still have a bit of an effect at 80 hz and delay things just a bit, so lets say 6 to 7 ms Q.E.D - quod erat demonstrandum

Peter
Logged

Douglas R. Allen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 776
    • http://-
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2004, 06:11:21 AM »

The delay caused by the crossover filter function and processing time of the DSPs will be the same for both, the only thing that is different is the phase response of each speaker box and the different path lengths.
 
The math as per your example
11.5 + 3.5 + 7 = 21
Logged
Allen Audio

"The worst thing is."
"You can't teach common sense."

Peter Morris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 705
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2004, 10:11:21 PM »

Doug, just to add to what you has said.

When you “align” a system you have two choices, as you mentioned, you can go for a “flat phase” phase response or you can go for a “smooth phase” response. (I am excluding first order filters and FIR filters)

If you go for a flat phase response what you try to do is to get the lo, mid, and hi frequency energy to arrive at the same time – basically you align the acoustic centres of drivers and in this case they would be about 10 feet apart or 11.5ms.  This sounds great until you look at the crossover points. There are other delays in the system caused by filters, drivers, box design etc; the result is that the summation at the crossover is often poor. You can try to minimise these problems by trying different asymmetrical filter functions but its never quite right through the crossover.

In the end what you get is a good result, it sounds very dynamic, the majority of the energy all arrives at the right time but there are problems around the crossover points.  Its made worse if the crossover points are in those more critical frequencies, in the middle of your vocal region or in this case 80 hz, your kick drum.  Its interesting that you select this for playback DJ stuff, I suspect it makes it sound more “live” ?

The other choice is to go for a smooth phase response. You do this by trying to time aligning things at the crossover point so that the drivers sum perfectly and are “in phase” at this point and you get a smooth transition though the crossover point.  In this case you would use 6 – 7 ms, the problem is that the low frequencies will arrive a bit late compared to the high frequencies.

In the end you get a sweet smooth sound and a system that’s easy to work with but lacks a bit of the dynamics of the flat phase alignment.  This is usually considered the best compromise.

In addition you also need to consider how flat the power response is, is the directivity plot smooth and how it behaves as you move off axis. These will also be affected by the crossover type and alignment.

One example is if the top boxes are flown and the subs ground stacked there is the possibility of significant parallax time alignment problem throughout the venue.  In this case it may be better to select different filter types/alignments (eg lower order, over lap the crossover frequencies and time alignment) to achieve the best compromise in terms of bass “lumps and bumps” throughout the venue.

Back to the lab subs, I use my 18 inch version with EAW KF 750s which have a sort of reflex/horn loaded LF so there is about 6 ms of delay associated with the box tuning. I find 6 to 7 ms of delay seems to work best which is what EAW suggest for their BH760 (10ft horn sub).

Peter - typing after 3 hours sleep.


Logged

DAVID J. SYRKO

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 114
Re: Delay Question - Please Help Me
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2004, 10:12:57 AM »

Assuming you have the room to do this,if you have your subs (especially a large number) in the center on the floor and you splay them in an arch much like when trapezoid cabinets are side by side giving you a more spread out pattern instead of the "power alley" with all of the cabinets facing forward, how would this affect all of the delays and x-over points that have been mentioned? Rolling Eyes
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up