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Author Topic: Powering up (and down, i suppose)  (Read 5904 times)

nullset

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Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« on: July 12, 2004, 11:27:37 am »

Hi,

I'm looking for a nice way of turning lots of gear all on and off at the same time.

For example, if I have amplifiers in three locations, I want to be able to turn them all on and off from the mixing position. (These locations will be only about 100ft maximum from the mixing desk, for example, on stage)

Is there a product designed for this sort of thing, or something I could rig?

TIA

--buddy
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Bruce Burke

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Tom Young

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2004, 07:38:38 am »

You refer to a "sequential AC power system with remote on-off switching".

For many years Atlas Soundolier has made such a system and it has been used widely in the installation market.

Linn Tech (not sure of spelling, try Kens Links) has been making the most heavy duty sequential AC systems for years, as well. Expensive but VERY good.

Recently others have developed their own systems and among these are Furman, Juice Goose and ETA.

SurgeX makes a very effective surge suppression system with sequential on-off. Also not cheap, but VERY good.
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Tom Young
Electroacoustic Design Services
Oxford CT
Tel: 203.888.6217
Email: dbspl@earthlink.net
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Vince Byrne

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2004, 08:56:29 am »

Tom Young wrote on Tue, 13 July 2004 06:38


Linn Tech (not sure of spelling, try Kens Links) has been making the most heavy duty sequential AC systems for years, as well. Expensive but VERY good.



Lyntec, www.lyntec.com

Peace,
Vince <><
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nullset

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2004, 10:02:38 am »

Tom Young wrote on Tue, 13 July 2004 07:38

You refer to a "sequential AC power system with remote on-off switching".



Thanks for the official-sounding name of what I'm looking for Smile

Tom Young wrote


Linn Tech (not sure of spelling, try Kens Links) has been making the most heavy duty sequential AC systems for years, as well. Expensive but VERY good.



Unfortunately, this is one of those church gigs without sufficient funding, so i'm looking to not have to spend a huge amount on it.  We're going to have to hire an electrician to do some drops for the amps anyway though....

The room is about 50 ft wide and about 100 ft long.  Currently I have all of the amps for the mains (2xQSC MX1500s,1x QSC 1600 (can't remember the lettering),1x peavey 8.5c) all near the sound console in the middle of the room.

Would I be better off moving the amps closer to the speakers and using shorter cables, and the resulting AC power system,or does it really matter when you're under 125-130ft of cabling?

ttyl,

--buddy
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Vince Byrne

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2004, 10:43:31 am »

nullset wrote on Tue, 13 July 2004 09:02

Unfortunately, this is one of those church gigs without sufficient funding, so i'm looking to not have to spend a huge amount on it.  We're going to have to hire an electrician to do some drops for the amps anyway though....


If you move your amps to the stage (where they belong IMHO) and you have a couple of spare snake lines to use for control signals or you can run a control signal cable, you can do this with Furman stuff without an electrician. Everything AC plugs into standard 20A outlets (or can be replugged for 15A), and is roughly equivalent to outlet strips or power conditioners.

At minimum, you will need a local switch at FOH, and however many remote controlled AC relays. I think that with their current stuff you can get by without a main sequencer, but I could be wrong.

It's a bit simpler if everything is at FOH, but still the same idea. Smile

If you would like to go this road AND you can spend $500-$1000 I would be willing to make a more specific recommendation ...

If so, please reply with:
- number and rating of circuits at FOH
- number and rating of circuits at stage
- other
that are to be included in the powering sequence.

- Amps in movable racks or permanent install?
- FOH in movable cases / racks or permanent install?

Peace,
Vince <><

(BTW, I have no financial motive here, the advice is free and I don't sell anything. Just please don't waste my time if you don't intend to take action, thanks.)

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nullset

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2004, 08:11:11 am »

Vince wrote on Tue, 13 July 2004 10:43



If you move your amps to the stage (where they belong IMHO) and you have a couple of spare snake lines to use for control signals or you can run a control signal cable, you can do this with Furman stuff without an electrician. Everything AC plugs into standard 20A outlets (or can be replugged for 15A), and is roughly equivalent to outlet strips or power conditioners.



We need an electrician because there aren't enough circuits to run the amps without new lines (and the outlets near the mix position are not properly grounded, so it has lots of problems with hum unless things are just right)

Vince wrote


If you would like to go this road AND you can spend $500-$1000 I would be willing to make a more specific recommendation ...



Thanks for being up front Smile  I'm mostly concerned with whether that would be a good use of money at this time versus leaving the amps where they are.  Because there are speakers at FOH (one amp for L+R,one amp for sub), and speakers in the middle and rear of the room, i'm curious whether the long cables are going to cause the damping factors of the amps to be insufficient. I haven't measured cable length yet to do the calculations/table lookup Smile

Quote:


If so, please reply with:
- number and rating of circuits at FOH


Currently, one circuit at FOH, 20A i believe. One at mix position, 20A
Quote:


- Amps in movable racks or permanent install?


racks
Quote:


- FOH in movable cases / racks or permanent install?


racks
Quote:


(BTW, I have no financial motive here, the advice is free and I don't sell anything. Just please don't waste my time if you don't intend to take action, thanks.)


Definitely not my intent.  However I can't say for sure whether money will be dropped on this unless it's worthwhile.  Considering that they're trying to find an electrician to do the tie-ins pro-bono, i don't honestly know whether any system upgrades will happen or not.

I'm just collecting information so that I can make useful suggestions should the funding arise.....

--buddy
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Vince Byrne

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2004, 10:09:33 am »

nullset wrote on Wed, 14 July 2004 07:11


I'm just collecting information so that I can make useful suggestions should the funding arise.....


Been there, done that ...

Look here:
Furman sequenced power stuff
and here:
Furman power distribution
at the distro with sequencing
and here:
Lowell Mfg sequenced load center
and here:
Lyntec sequencing app notes
and collect away!

The best way to do this for a permanent install is with a sequenced load center for the AC service. Lyntec is best, Lowell is lower cost. Furman is mostly for mobile systems, and plugging into or tyeing into an existing AC service.

Peace,
Vince <><
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2004, 04:05:11 pm »

If there trying to do the job ACAP (as cheap as possible) and still do a decent job, theyd probably have a better go at it with the furman stuff. That way the electricians can drop there lines (1 20a per amp IMNSHO) and they can just find the place with the cheapest furman plugin relay(s) and controll them with the PWRLINK.

If they had the money, the "real" installed ac distro by the likes of lyntek/lowell are most likely a nicer option, but the electricians time and cost of installing the whole shot is much more. Besides, the furman stuff has many uses down the road as well.

Karl P
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Vince Byrne

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2004, 06:41:53 pm »

Karl P wrote on Wed, 14 July 2004 15:05

If there trying to do the job ACAP (as cheap as possible) and still do a decent job, theyd probably have a better go at it with the furman stuff. That way the electricians can drop there lines (1 20a per amp IMNSHO) and they can just find the place with the cheapest furman plugin relay(s) and control them with the PWRLINK.



This is pretty much what I was going to propose.

If an electrician is going to drop new lines, I would have him wire MP-20Q in two-gang boxes in place of normal Edison recepticles. It looks stupid  Confused (I know because I did it) to have five sets of coiled up AC cords from the amps to the relay box, and then another set of coiled up cords from the relay box to the outlet. To my defense, this was before they had the "Q" versions or the PWRLINK.  Smile

Back in the day when I did this for my former church I used the PS-8R (~$300 7 years ago)and three PS-REL voltage sensing relays (~$60 ea) at FOH and five MP-20 remote relays (~$110 ea) in the amp closet. Two snake lines were used for signals. I did double up amps on a couple of circuits and it was ugly.

- Step 1 (on first, off last) did all of FOH from the PS-8R + L/R GEQ + XOVER
- Step 2 did L,R + Mon1,2 amps
- Step 3 did subR(bridged) + subL(bridged) + Mon3,4 amps

It all worked great, about $1000.

IIRC, the MP-20Q relays are ~$80, I would guess ~$250 for the PWRLINK and another ~$60 for the switch box. For this guy, I would guess he would need ~$500-850 total if he has the "Q" relays wired in or ~$650-1000 for "non-Q" depending on number of ciruits.

Quote:

If they had the money, the "real" installed ac distro by the likes of lyntek/lowell are most likely a nicer option, but the electricians time and cost of installing the whole shot is much more. Besides, the furman stuff has many uses down the road as well.



If the electrician would have to install a new service panel anyway, the Lowell stuff might end up cheaper than installing a typical panel plus the Furman. If he is useing the existing service, overall cost will almost certainly be least with the Furman.

He's not moving anytime soon, but he's collecting info. That's the drill for church sound - 3% doing, 97% collecting info for when and if you get budget ...

Maybe he can catch a more substantial renovation in the future and will have learned enough to do it well with Lowell/Lyntec.

Peace,
Vince <><
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nullset

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2004, 08:44:07 am »

Yeah, this room is a very odd place.

The system is a half breed of mobile and permanent install - it doesn't move around TOO often, but it does move around occasionally.  

I think at this stage it might be best to just get the 4 (or 5) 20 A drops installed at the mix position (or perhaps a distro panel with 4 20A circuits in it).  That way I won't have to worry about remote powering, and the room isn't large enough for the cable lengths to really become an issue.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

--buddy
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Vince Byrne

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2004, 09:27:24 am »

nullset wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 07:44

I think at this stage it might be best to just get the 4 (or 5) 20 A drops installed at the mix position (or perhaps a distro panel with 4 20A circuits in it).


Then look at the Furman rack-mount distros, and look at Motion Labs. IIRC Furman has a 6x20A with sequencing and 5x20A without. Motion has all kinds of stuff. With a rack mount distro with sequencing you still might be coming up on a grand ...

Peace,
Vince <><
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nullset

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Re: Powering up (and down, i suppose)
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2004, 10:40:55 am »

I'm still trying to decide what to recommend here.

What I have:
Spirit LX-7 mixer
random rack equipment (Nothing high powered)
2x QSC MX-1500a
1x QSC PLX1602
1x Peavey 800ish watt deal
2 other small (500-1000 watt) amps running monitors (on stage)

1 QSC MX-1500 drives a pair of front speakers, the other drives a pair of speakers in the middle of the room, and the 800ish watt peavey drives a pair of speakers in the rear.

The PLX1602 drives a JBL MP255 subwoofer which is in the front of the room.

So....how much power do i need?  I've tried to estimate but I'm not sure if i'm in the right range or not.  Do i need 2x 20A? 1 x 1.21 jiggawatts? (j/k)

The other question is should i move one QSC amp and the PLX1602 to the front of the room and just turn them on by hand? If so should I get a 20A circuit there? 2 20A circuits? Should I just consult an electrical contractor and ask? Smile

thanks for advice,

--buddy
www.gtccf.org - this is the place i'm volunteering my time
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