kassel wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 19:09 |
Im the sound tech at a 1200 person theater. The system there now is horrible.
|
As others have pointed out in this thread the first and obvious move is a consultant. Of course this only works if there is enough money to pay for it and the people with the checkbook can be convinced or you can find a kindhearted consultant to do it for a very reduced fee.
Next you look for any of your contacts that know more (or even less) about this subject then you do and ask for some advice gratis (knowing full well it may worth exactly what you paid for it)
So for the sake of discussion lets say that none of the above is going to happen.
Now what?
Well you nibble at it yourself and see what you can figure out just like you are doing now by asking questions on this forum.
Is your experience mainly in mixing live sound?
kassel wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 19:09 |
The mains are two flown carvin TCS210 speakers, with two apogee subs flown behind big concrete pillars, and way out of time with the mains. There is only one good listening spot in the house. the coverage of the system is terrible. In short, the system sucks.
|
Do you know specifically what is wrong with the system you have? Beyond "it sucks" can you name the individual problems or are you guessing?
Have you measured it with an analyzer? Do you know all the drivers are in good working order. Have you tested all the amplifiers, active xovers, EQs, any electronics in line, wiring, etc???
BTW what do you have for test gear? Would you know how to run Smaart if you had it?
You say the coverage is terrible. Do you know that the problem is the cabinets are aimed incorrectly? Are thy hung in an obviously ridiculous place? Do you think it is a basic coverage problem caused by the dispersion of the cabinet not fitting the room and where they are hung?
kassel wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 19:09 |
The theater itself wasn't made for PA systems, and has a lot of concrete walls, with very little sound absorption or diffraction material. The sides of the theater are 4 huge concrete pillars. So there is a lot of reverberation from the speakers, causing feedback and somewhat incoherent sound.
|
Just taking the description above and the little you have mentioned it sounds like one of the problems may be horizontal dispersion. Those concrete pillars are something I have dealt with on a regular basis. Placed there scatter sound from a symphony, but killing intelligibility when you use your PA.
You have two choices concerning them. Crossfire the PA enough to miss them (the edge seats will suffer, sorry) or drape them. Carpet is not enough, you need depth from pleats. The ones nearest the stage are by far the most critical.
kassel wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 19:09 |
My question, what kind of system would work for a place like this?
|
At this point I am not convinced what you have can't work a lot better. Barring the help of an experienced consultant trying to tweak what you have and noting what improves the situation will point you in the right direction.
Carvin products are NOT my favorite. In addition your box only costs $400 each so we can't expect too much from them (obviously at 70Hz for lower limit the sub have to stay unless you only wish to do voice).
All that considered I have run some truly cheap piles of trash and had them sound acceptable as long as I kept the volume down to what they can handle. You need to separate SPL limitations of the speaker from any other problems as a starting point.
kassel wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 19:09 |
I'd love to get a line array with delayed balcony fills, mezzanine under fills, and front fills, but the cost is just out of the question for this theater.
|
Line arrays are nice in a theater for getting a lot of output from smaller packages. Especially with the advent of the current crop of "mini" line arrays. On that subject just keep in mind that it takes continuous structure of a certain height to make it operate as a line array at a specific frequency and smaller cabinets means you need more to reach that height. There is no way of cheating this.
The other possibility to keep in mind is one problem may be that your current Carvin boxes have 90 degree horizontal coverage. If you trade them for a brand new line array with similar horizontal coverage you now have something that costs several orders of magnitude more, still sucks, but is MUCH louder. [/quote]
kassel wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 19:09 |
We're looking at what we can do for 10k. Any suggestions? I can leave more info, i just didnt want to ramble on too long.
|
In you position I would do two things. Look really hard at where your boxes should be and what kind of coverage you need from those points to have the sound hit the seats and nothing else.
Then I would ask for demonstrations from various manufacturers and any local sound companies.
BTW have you had other systems in there ground stacked and how did they work?
Keeping in mind that nothing will work unless the dispersion fits the space just about all the serious stuff starts at $3k to $4k a box. The McCauley is somewhat less for some reason.
For boxes under that you might look at the Yorkville "Unity" series (IF it fits for dispersion)
If you want to invest some time you could download the free demo version of Ulysses (something like EASE). If you spend some time you can plot out the coverage patterns and see what might work and what is really a bad match.
www.loudspeakers.netor
www.ifbsoft.deThis place is just like talking to a medical doctor on line. If it's anything serious the doctor tells you to go and see one in person (a consultant in this case). It is the only right way to handle it.
I'm not a trained or experienced consultant. My degree is in "Make whatever is here work as well as possible in the time allowed". If you are in the same position that is what you have to rely on when you can't afford a "Doctor".
I've worked around various theaters for more then 20 years. It is hard enough to convince the commercial theaters that make a tidy profit to pay a consultant. Convincing a community theater that does not have enough money to buy enough mic cords is a miracle and means you are blessed with some truly far sited and gracious benefactors.
The only real argument you have is that without a consultant you may spend the $10k and find you need to do the project over again in two years.
"Never money to do it right; Always money to do it twice."
It may take that. You may have to try something, find it doesn't cut it and do it again.
Well I stirred the pot some and should get a few flames. Since I retired they don't bother me so much. In any case the worst that could happen is I might learn something.
Too Tall