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[Tom Herr]

Oops I guess I overlooked that (A) My bad.

[Phillip_Graham]

gtphill wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 16:54

Bogdan P. wrote on Sun, 16 May 2004 13:50 Hi Brad, I know i would need min 4, but the budged does not allow that for now. I also know a few here use them 2 + 2 and did OK. I am thankful for every input on this. From my experience, i did fine with filters set to 80Hz. I have 6x15" to cover up from 70-80Hz plus the 3x15" on the fullrange boxes. I am more worried about the mid-high... Thank you, Bogdan   Hey Bogdan, The filter being referred to here is a High Pass, not a low pass.  You need to protect the 12's from ultra low frequencies, so you should set a high pass of at least 12dB/octave. You have 6 dual 15" boxes, and 4 lab subs to work with.  I am with Tako, place all 4 lab subs in front of the center of the stage, and the dual 15's below the tops stage left and right. If all 4 LABS are together in a line, they will couple at the lowest frequencies, giving you some additional extension. I would have the dual 15's run down to around 45hz to give you some extra low end. As for your tops, you can increase the throw by stacking them vertically. So rather than 4 wide, I would do 2x2 like this: W       W m       m horn    horn horn    horn m       m W       W And then splay the tops along the coverage pattern of the horn. So, in summary Top Top                                              Top Top Top Top                                              Top Top   Sub Sub sub                                      Sub Sub Sub ---------------------------------------------------------                         LAB LAB LAB LAB Guessed ranges: Labs: 35-80hz Subs: 45-100hz It's really hard for me to say without me sitting in front of the PA with my smaart rig out.  I think you'll be OK as long as you are doing the mixing, and keep the volumes around 95dBA or so.

Hmm, this looks perfectly when you click on it, but doesn't post properly.  Tops and subs SL/SR and lab subs under stage at center.

This setup would require some substantial tweaking with smaart, but It would how I would do it.

And yes, I did say 95dBA, which is louder than 95dBC.  I universally try to mix at <100dBA.  It's simply too loud for me, and for the audiences i generally mix for.

[Bogdan Popescu]

Hi to everyone,

I didn't get home lately so sorry for my late reply.
The setup proposed by gtphill an Tamas is similar to how i was thinking. The 15" are Eminence K15LF so they should be fine down to 35-40 Hz

I use DSP, Behringer (budget thing again   ) DCX2496, not a bad tool ...i don't know how accurate it is but it seems to do it's job. I let it measure the delays with the microphone.
I also have smaart but I'm not that familiar with it yet and didn't try to use it on live event. Also the tutorials i have are heavy stuff for me because of my poor technical English understanding. Maybe one of you can give me a short lesson explained like for a stupid nonenglish child ... microphone available is ECM8000 (Beheheringer again)

Another problem could be the center stacking of the LAB's, the stage does not allow that because of some stairs (i have to check if they can be removed)... how far from each other must the LAB's be so they are still coupled, what's the critical distance?

The stage is approx 20m wide/1,2m high, on each side we can stack the rest of the boxes on a 1,6m high metal structure.


I am really greatfull for the input,
Bogdan  

[Bogdan Popescu]

and another few things...

i understand overlapping the LAB's to the double 15" and i understand why i have to swich polarity (can also set phase to 180 on the DSP), but how about overlapping the top's with the 3 dual15"  ?

To have a complete view here are the top's:
per side will have 5 top's now
  3 tops are with same Eminence K15LF as the dual15", they are crossed passive to 600Hz. Do i let the double 15" go the same up? I want to let this 3 top's down to 40 Hz too, to help on the low end...
The other 2 tops have different 15" (Delta 15) that can do maybe 50Hz and are the same crossed at 600Hz to the mid.

Do you think i should let the double 15" on the ground or do i put them on the metal structure below the top's ?

Isn't it more fun to tweak a low budged system like this ?  
I think i would need some good knowledge in smmart to get a decent sound out of this combination.

And yes i have a DSP (B. DCX2496) for each side, working together on LAN and controlled with my laptop, so we have 6 outs per side to play with


Thank you and sory for the complications and my poor English
Bogdan

[Tamas Tako]

Hi Bogdan,

It starts to become a bit complicated....
Well, If you want to couple the 2x2 LABs then they can't be further away from each other than 2-3m.... That are bad news.
When you have in your top boxes the same 15" with the same Bass Reflex tunung and enclosure volume then you can use them as the 15" sub enclosures. With the rest of the boxes (the other type of 15" I would try how the system sounds better becouse I can't suggest you anything without knowing them. And the 15" subs together with the same type 15"s from the top boxes should have the same !!!! HPF as the LABsubs. This is very important becouse of the group delay. I don't know what is the xover freq. between the 15" and the mid range, but I wouldn't suggest anything over 300Hz....

Using smaart is not complicated. Understanding the results and chosing measurement arangements are complicated....
You should download all training material from the www.siasoft.com homepage! I think those are very helpfull.


Good luck!

Tamas

[Jens Droessler]

In any case you simply HAVE to stack all 4 LABsubs center stage. Cover them if that is your worry.

I don't think that it is a good idea to let the double-15s run down to 45Hz and let the LABsub go up to 80Hz.

I think you should use the LABsub up to 60Hz, from there the double-15s to 130Hz or 150Hz, then your tops.

You asked if you could use the K15LF from your tops in the same frequency range with the double-15s which are also K15LF equipped. I only would recommend this if both enclosures have the same volumina (per speaker, so the double-15 should have double) and same tuning (or at least similar). Else you could get more problems than you had before.....

In any case you should use the automatic delay measuring feature of your DCX2496.

Are your tops tri-amped?