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[Sawdust]

Hearing the problem is its own problem. Club DJs are usually listening through headphones coming off the mixer and most DJ mixers don't have inserts. In other words, all the processing is being done after the monitoring point.

Your typical mobile wedding jock is operating solo. He is behind the speakers most of the time except when he is speaking on a wireless. He isn't in a FOH position.

Finally, you need to have an appreciation for good sound before you can recognize it. Do you remember your first glass of wine? It probably tasted awful and so did your second glass. In fact, you probably started out drinking sweet wines that you no longer like. It takes years to develop a palate that can distinguish the nuances between a single wine variety. Sound is the same way. I remember my aunt buying a stereo that sounded awful. Her criteria for sound had been a clock/radio. She didn't have a good reference.

Kids coming into club style DJing are used to heavily bass boosted hip/hop being played on stations that add more boost on a car stereo that has additional boost with the EQ set at flat.  This is how they expect all music to sound.

[Baron Gray]

I think that was an episode of "Roseanne" and the guy that tuned it made a statment about it being tuned for 6000ft but "Dan" liked the lumpy rumble.

Baron

[Mr.Nightro]

You know I had an hour long argument about this very topic not too long ago. A so called "professional" sound reinforcement guy I know was stereotyping all DJ's in the same sinking ship as nothing more then "failed S/R wanna be's that just couldn't get a clue to be able to produce a good sound from a sound system". With this statement made I had no choice but to set him correct in that it's not up to an average DJ to know how to correctly fine tune a sound system. You ask a traditional DJ what are his/her tools of the trade & they shall tell you that it is his/her decks (i.e. turntables or cd player, cause this is where their TRUE skills shine) NOT his/her PA. This be true with a singer, drummer, guitarist etc. think about it would Hendricks be any less a talented Guitarist cause he didn't know how to tune his PA to make his guitar to sound good?
My argument started with this "professional" because a system he supplied to a DJ was I must admit sounding awful (especially since I had my personal PA next to his & blowing it out of the water in clarity, overall high spl & high level bass) but this was no one else's fault but his own. The system he provided would of sounded great if in fact he was doing a stage show but a DJ rig needs to be tuned differently then that of a live PA. We all know that DJ's love bass ( this is cause bass is what gets the people dancing) so give them plenty of clean bass from the start by adding extra sub cabinets so they don't have to fiddle with the system to try & get more bass out of  a perfectly balanced system that is unable to give them the extra low frquencies to the levels they are looking for.
The average DJ has never studied sound reinforcement in any shape or form & more then likely learned on the scene with a few tips here & there while "most" S/R guys have spent many years reading & studying their trade cause that is where the bulk of their profession lay (in the PA). With so many gimmick products & sales pitches out there for DJ's how would you expect an average person to make the correct choice in putting their DJ PA rig together? Take a look at the low quality of equipment geared towards DJ's, then you condemn them for trying to push their PA system past the point it was designed to perform. Just read through the posts in the Lab Lounge & see how many people are trying to get platinum sound out of lead equipment, it's not their fault it's all in the learning curve.
IT IS TOTALLY WRONG TO PLACE ALL DJ'S IN ONE STEREOTYPE AS THIS POST IMPLIES, NO WHERE IN HERE DO I SEE IT STATED AS SOME DJ'S BUT DJ'S IN GENERAL. As though we have never paid large fee's to go to a concert to see our favourite band & have the whole experience messed up cause the sound system sounded awful...HMMM Educate don't walk away & condemn them for simply not knowing... Also as stated in another post here the location of the DJ isn't exactly perfect for monitoring the PA for the whole night as it is for a a S/R so maybe the dj is too caught up in his mix & not able to tell what the system is sounding like at that given time.

[Dave Bigelow]

I've had the thought of breaking out a tube of super glue on the dj's stuff at work before. Some of them just can't comprehend the meaning of "quit clipping my preamps or I'll turn you off."

[Rain Jaudon]

Yes, they just like it like that.
Its a shame - Many are glorified home stereo operators.
They push it hi fi - hence the DJ smiley curve you keep seeing.

I had a similar situation at a club in Greenville, MS.
Ended up screwing a plexi cover over the face of the EQ and Xover to keep him from putting his monkey hands on it.

Eventualy he started taking the cover off and jacking with it..
I turned the system back over to the venue owner and washed my hands of it all.

Good luck -
Rain
btw, hide a brick wall limiter somewhere. That way he can turn it up all he wants, its only gonna get THIS loud.. saves a system!

[Mr.Nightro]

You have found the solution to the problem already but you fail to address it correctly. It is obvious the system isn't giving him the form of performance he is looking for & that is why he is distorting the system trying to achieve the levels he is looking for. We all know that you can only achieve so much spl from a given quantity of speakers but here you have the uninformed trying to get that extra level of spl or bass from a given system. If you have to provide a system for a DJ think overkill, in that you provide a system that will give him/her plenty of headroom to spare on top of any sain level you feel would be needed for a given venue by adding extra speaker coverage (a good compressor/limiter would also be a good idea). Keep in mind the thought process behind the two sound providers, a S/R guy would want good clean even coverage over a given area at sain levels while a DJ wants BASS heavy coverage with spl's that make your head throb wishing for a set of ear plugs & this is where the conflict comes in. One is a trained professional that knows all the technical ins & outs of the game while the other only knows what he wants but not how to technically achieve it (Some, NOT all fall in this category). If you have a DJ that keeps messing with your PA then it is obvious your PA isn't giving him what he is looking for so it would then make sense to gear your PA to the DJ's needs correctly for him keeping in mind what he/she is looking for. I provide various sound systems for local DJ's week in & weekend out & I no longer have the problem of DJ's distorting my systems I provide for them ever since I changed my mind set as to how I provided sound for them. What ever system I provide for them is pieced together so that it will give the DJ what they are looking for while still keeping good clean sound & staying out of the red.
Has anyone tried the DJ setting on the DBX DriveRack PA?, notice how bass heavy the settings are? this is because DBX realize the sound a DJ is looking for, though I find the setting to be  a bit harsh & use a custom setting for DJ's that works perfectly.

Each one, Teach one.

[Michael Prasuhn]

Rain wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 23:32

[snip] btw, hide a brick wall limiter somewhere. That way he can turn it up all he wants, its only gonna get THIS loud.. saves a system!

If you can hide a brick wall limiter, why aren't you hiding the graphic eq, crossovers, DSP, etc? Seriously it's common sense here, present that artist with their tools, and you have yours. Don't let anyone use your tools unless:

a) they have proper credentials, i.e. a trusted friend says they are alright, their reputation precedes them, etc.

b) you have prior experience with them, and therefore trust them

c) you supervise them while they use your tools, to make sure they are taken care of

or

d) let them use your tools however they want, and maybe you'll get them back fine, maybe you'll get them back broken, abused, missing, or not at all.

I'm not singling out DJ's here. This isn't about stereotypes. This isn't about us vs. them. This is about establishing trust (yours of them), and taking responsibility for your own gear. It's ultimately you who are responsible for it.

-Mikey P

[Alan Hamilton]

Beefcake wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 23:16

I don't know man...i think you're building up a stereotype there. I think that you need to have a little meeting with that DJ and teach him a few things...unless he "knows" what he's doing. It might just be that he just doesn't know what he's doing.

Of course it isn't true of all DJ's.... just every DJ I've ever seen!

Seriously, I think it is a 'monkey see, monkey do' thing and so it is very prevalent. It's hard enough to get thru to one person but when a large portion of his peers do it the same way then it is even going to be harder to make him listen enough to understand.

-AlanH

[Merlin]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I've been following along.

FWIW, in this case the DJs [there's several that work in the club] hadn't touched the graphic or the processor etc [it's locked anyhow...]

What prompted my rant was that I'd given them a system that was louder and cleaner than before [fixed up the gain stages through the graphic and processor], demo'd it in front of owner, managers and main DJ, they all said "great" and when I returned, it was back to sounding like shit, only louder.

I had already thought of pads etc, but it's pointless going down that path - there's gain settings and limiters in the processor; I suppose I could put a pad in the XLRs on the inputs to the graphic - but what's the use if the signal is clipping at the input stage of the DJ mixer? I mean, don't you think those lights are RED for a reason?

And yes, I'd already given them the little speech: "keep the signal in the yellow, one or two red lights ok, but not all the time. Don't worry, it's plenty loud enough...]"

Ahhh well....

[Henry Denman]

I really have to agree with Mickey here.  I mean do you let Joe Schmo AE off the street walk in and trust your rig to him?  I don't.  I keep my eye on them for a while until I know if I can trust their judgment.  DJ, AE, I don't care who he is.  I keep all my gear locked up so I am the only one to gauge how much or how quality the sound being produced by the speakers.  This is unless I know them and then all bets are off...no access what so ever.    

When I am dealing with a DJ or someone who is giving me a send from stage I have a little talk with them prior to the show.  I set the guidelines and do a sound check.  I also have a comp/limiter inserted on there channel to protect against unexpected peeks.

Henry