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Author Topic: To buy a Graphic or not...  (Read 5987 times)

Kaz

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To buy a Graphic or not...
« on: April 23, 2004, 01:14:16 pm »

Hi there,

This is my first post and I hope I can pick your brains...

Here's my setup:

2 x Mackie SRM 450
1 x Mackie 1801
Yamaha O1V96
IEM for monitors

I have a phonic PAA2 that I use to EQ the system using the onboard parametric on the O1V. Now I have been wondering if it is worth buying a decent analogue 31 band EQ.

Reading the info on this site and other places its difficult to say how much it will add to this setup. My personal view is that I want as little as possible in the signal path that could colour or change the sound.

I'd be intereted to know people's experience with their setup and how much of a difference  a good graphic makes.

Cheers,

Kaz
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Timoteus Ruotsalainen

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2004, 02:25:45 pm »

Unless you have someone using the system that needs a graphic I wouldn't even consider it. Parametrics are so much better. A fully parametric with swept high- and low-pass filters would be ideal for FOH. Monitor world uses graphics cause it's "faster" to tweak a graphic.

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Timoteus Ruotsalainen
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David Bedrack

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2004, 11:39:33 am »

I don't know how much of "coloured" sound your gigs can tolerate,but any GEQ built by any respectable manufacturer will be totally transparent in terms if distortion and noise- provided you follow proper gain structure procedures (see "Study Hall")

Believe me, these days, with better speakers and overall good sound gear, the classic application of GEQs in "flattening" the system is much less of a need, BUT, sometimes a nasty problem will arise and you will be begging for one.

...and, it will help you identify problems that now you are not even aware of them.

Get a good one.  A 1/3rd octave will be useful forever

have fun

David B.
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Kaz

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2004, 01:02:01 pm »

Thanks David & Timoteus,

I think my feeling is that now that I have the tools to visually see what I am hearing that is what is worring me  Rolling Eyes

And as you say David, most of the kit that I have I have chosen carefully to try and minise the colouring. So for most of the time I will just plus say my AKG C900 and very little EQ is needed for it to sound good.

Before I was using cheaper floor monitors that were messing up my FOH mix. So I think I will go with this setup for now while I work in the IEM's and focus my time and money on getting that all ironed out before I start worrying about the main mix.

Seiously removing the monitors has done so much to the mix, more than what a graphic would have done...

To that end I need to think what the best way to bring in the atmosphere into the IEM's...

Well thanks guys, you've been very helpful!

Cheers,

Kaz
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Michael Prasuhn

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2004, 11:53:29 pm »

It honestly depends. Do you like the sound you are getting now? Are you getting complaints about how it sounds from listeners? Are you having trouble with the FOH system feeding back at multiple frequencies?

It can be a tool to use there, given certain situations such as lots of feedback at widely separated frequencies, but for general shaping of the tone, it sounds like you are doing a pretty good job already.

Are you running your 450's off of the outputs of your subwoofer? If not, they may be overlapping in frequency with your sub, and causing a buildup of lows/low mids, that would need EQing to correct.

If you think this is something you should just have, because you see it elsewhere, think twice before purchasing one. Think about how satisfied you are with the results you have now.

-MIkey P

P.S. It sounds like you are already taking an interest in system tuning and alignment, you may want to check out Smaart from SIA Software for a PC based system to measure your PA. It is an extremely deep program, and understanding it's output may take awhile, but there are plenty here on this forum and in the LAB to help you, as well as training and articles available from Sia's website.
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Michael D. Prasuhn
Freelance audio engineer and technical director/IT
http://mikeyp.net

Kaz

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2004, 03:15:20 am »

Mikey,

I've look at the link and I am thinking... holy cow thats complex! I am still trying to get the max out of the PAA2 and so maybe I will study and research it more before I can even start to think what I need to do with it  Very Happy

As for the sound, most people are very happy with it. I do like the sound I get from my Mackie setup (and yes I do run the 450's from the 1801) and for the size of audience I use it for (100-300) what I have seems to be fine.

But being a control freak I want to control the different halls that I run the system in. Most of the time I lose coz there is very little I can do with the time & space issues for a hall! I used to struggle even more when I ran cheap monitors but with that gone, I feel more comfortable with the sound that I am getting.

I guess the bottom line for me right now is that I don't want to go down the line of getting a cheap graphic from Behringer or something in the sub US$500 bracket and would like to go for the BBS or around the US$1000 mark. Seriously when I have invested thousands into the system I don't want to go cheap and wreck the sound by putting in a poor quality equipment in  the signal path.

And so as an aside, what do you think about going for an active crossover rather than using the inbuilt one in the 1801? Would that have more merits than a graphic?

Thanks,

Kaz

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Dry Creek

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2004, 11:23:41 am »

Hi Kaz!

I recommand you getting the DBX Driverack 260. Soundhouse in Narita Japan sells them cheap.

It has GEQ, PEQ, X/O, COMP, Auto-Eq and etc in 1U space. I have a DRPA(budget version of DR260) in my main rack and works great.

My FOH system is similar to yours (I use Yamaha active speakers along with an analog mixer). My active subwoofers (SW500) have built-in crossovers but my X/O on DRPA works much better than the one on my SW500. The best part is that I can choose from some different filters such as Butterworth and Linkwitz-Riley (they are handy when you change your subwoofer placement etc).

Off course you can try GEQ and PEQ for room tuning, tone shaping and feedback reduction. If you like your tunings, you can store the data. If you don't like the EQs you can bypass them.

Good luck.

Yoshi


Tim Padrick

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 02:30:50 am »

I'm not much of a fan of the Mackie sub a client has (don't know which one - it's a bandpass box).  Formerly I was not much of a fan of the 450s.  Then I used a pair with my Audix OM7s: the 450s can really sing. However in some rooms you will get hot spots that greatly compromise gain before feedback even with OM7s, so I would indeed recommend an affordable but decent EQ (dbx & Rane ok, Alesis digital ok, Alesis 230 NOT ok, Behringer and Yamaha not ok.)  (If you are up to getting the hang of using it, a parametric would (as others mentioned) be a better option.)

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Allen (Alien) Craft

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 03:50:49 am »

Over in the LAB, we did a Graphic EQ shoot out. BINK has the details compiled somewhere.
The Behringer, although easy flame-bait, actually performed well. Don't try driving a long line with it was the only caveat.
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Kaz

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Re: To buy a Graphic or not...
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2004, 08:10:56 am »

I tried looking but only found the discussion but no results. Any idea where I can find it?

Kaz
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