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Author Topic: System under a budget  (Read 8890 times)

Andy Peters

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2004, 02:22:58 PM »

David,

I know this will sound like a broken record but I have to shout it, shout it out loud:

TELL YOUR FRIEND THAT HE SHOULD CALL THE LOCAL PA COMPANY AND HIRE IN A RIG FOR EACH GIG.

Seriously.

After he pisses away his four large on leftover/beatup/inadequate gear, he STILL needs someone to set it up, run it, and truck it from show to show, and a place to store it, and he needs to insure it, and maintain it, and all of the little things that go with being a sound company.

Seriously.

For small rooms, the PA rental cost isn't a whole lotta money.  For bigger things and outdoor shows, sure, the PA rental will be more money, but guess what? The organization that hires the band has to foot the bill for production costs -- and that includes hiring-in a proper sound system.

Seriously.
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Steve Stallings

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 02:29:43 PM »

I would suggest that he ignore that advice entirely.



Andy,
Why do you suggest this? Carvin is made in the USA and is a reasonable alternative when money is tight. Not that I am a huge Carvin fan, but the fact is that they do make some stuff which is on par with other entry level (Peavey, Yorkville, etc) equipment. They get consistently good reviews at that price level. We are talking about a budget system that is not meant for touring. Obviously, he can't afford racks and stacks at his stated budget. Carvin (as well as other budget gear) is a viable alternative.
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Lee Brenkman

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 03:01:48 PM »

The point is that it doesn't matter to Andy's advice WHERE Carvin gear is made, or how well reviewed it is, or even how good a value for money it is.

Going to the original question, the fact is that the stated budget spent nearly anywhere would not result in enough gear to perform in the situations cited in the original post.

Nor would it provide for the experience and training needed to properly set up and operate systems in those settings.

The suggestions to use the services of a local sound company or tap the resources of the college AV department for the smaller shows is IMNSHO a good one.

Cheers,
"Grampa" Lee
an AV department veteran before most of you guys were born
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david423

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2004, 04:09:21 PM »

Thanks guys, i appreciate all the advice. I've already told the guy that he needs more money. He is working on that now. Might be able to get between 7000-8000.

One thing to clear up. I wasn't being stupid when i said what they needed. They already have cheaper powered monitors, about 5 SM58's and probably 10 57's. Also plenty of mic stands, cables and a majority of the little stuff. We were also looking around the other day and found two rack boxes. They have lots of little stuff but just need the big stuff (that takes up all the money).

Also, AV dept - basically everything that the band has is the college's AV dept. That consists of a Peavey 8 channel top-box, 2 Peavey International 12's, and mics and cabling. So that option has already been denied many times.

Oh well, itll figure it self out some-time.
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Steve Stallings

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2004, 04:37:54 PM »

David,
I understand where you are coming from money wise. I agree with the folks here that it may be better to simply hire a sound company. However, regardless of any advice you might get here, there most certainly are alternatives. I own a modest project studio and until last week was working with a band using a mid sized touring system that probably cost around $75k or so. I've been working with them for the last seven years. I've been involved in music since the late 50s and have had my share of situations where money was a big factor. Any ~$4000 system will have compromises. To put together a good quality system meeting your specs would run easily $15k... and that would still involve compromises.

Here is a system which will get you in the door:



2444-1588 - 24 ch 2000W Sound System

Cover audiences up to 1200 people. The package system contains: one DCM2000 2000W power amp, two 1588 2x15" 800W 3-way loudspeakers, two XLR25 cables, two PH50 speaker cables and a C2444 24 channel, 4-bus stereo mixer with digital effects. Add additional speakers to increase coverage. System will drive up to 4 speakers. ($2499)

A monitor system (ran from the foh board) can be added for $1395
(System 1542-4-1015) Has four 15 inch/horn wedges cables and power amp.

This is $3894 total at www.carvin.com

You still need a snake, stands, and mic.s The board has built in effects. You can expand the system as money shows up.

This will work. It will not sound like a pro level system, but it won't stink either.

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Andy Peters

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2004, 05:42:42 PM »

SteveE9C6 wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 13:37

2444-1588 - 24 ch 2000W Sound System

Cover audiences up to 1200 people. The package system contains: one DCM2000 2000W power amp, two 1588 2x15" 800W 3-way loudspeakers, two XLR25 cables, two PH50 speaker cables and a C2444 24 channel, 4-bus stereo mixer with digital effects. Add additional speakers to increase coverage. System will drive up to 4 speakers. ($2499)

This will work. It will not sound like a pro level system, but it won't stink either.


I would bet money on this system NOT being able to cover a room that holds 1000 people.  We do a narrow room that holds ~225 people with a 2x15" + 2" plus 2x18" sub on each side, and that only covers the main audience area.  We still need delayed boxes towards the rear of the room for back fill.

"Add speakers to increase coverage."  Yeah, I'll say -- and now you're blowing your budget.  I refuse to believe that the ONE power amp in the package will drive, say, four boxes to adequate levels without clipping.  Also, the package doesn't have subs, so forget about doing rock bands.

That $1395 monitor rig apparently doesn't include four channels of 31-band graphic EQ.  I assume that the console in the package has enough aux sends to do four monitor mixes plus something left over for effects?

In case you're wondering -- no, it's not that I'm dissing Carvin.  (I"ve never used any Carvin gear, so I don't have any opinions.)  What I'm dissing is the notion that you can ring up ANYONE and have a $4000 PA delivered to your door that'll do what the guy needs.  

Stop doing this guy a disservice by saying he can buy a complete package for $3500 that'll do the job -- because it won't.  He would simply be WASTING HIS MONEY.

--a
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Dietrich Sider

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2004, 02:09:18 AM »

Steve and David:

Q: How much PA for 1000 people?

A: A lot!

Even if you pack them in tight, your room has to be pretty big just to hold them all. Say 100 ft X 100 ft?

Would you settle for an spl of 90 dB in the middle of the room? (84 at the back) For the system from Carvin, the speakers claim an output of 103dB SPL. Not going to cut it. You're going to need at least 114 dB at 3 feet.(Best case - SPL goes down 6dB every time you double the distance from the speaker) Not very loud still, but hey - if they don't like it they can leave, right?

The speakers in that system are 4 Ohms. The specs on the amp are only 700W per channel at 4 Ohms. Slightly underpowered, but ok.

So - add another pair of speakers. (+$600) Now you've got only 350W of power per speaker - dangerous territory there and certainly not enough power to get the volume up where you want it with those three way cabs.

Ok, so add another amplifier (+$600) Good - now you have an extra 6dB to work with. Still not enough. But maybe it'll be ok for now.

And this is supposed to be rock'n'roll? Where's the bass thump? subs and another amp from Carvin. (+$1600) Well, it's not exactly chest thumping, but at least I can hear the bass drum now.

Hmm - got it set up, but it sounds like crap - all this high-end cancellation going on - wonder what's up with that? Another look at the specs, and you see that the speakers have a 90 x 45 dispersion. Can't just plop two of them down side by side like that. And once everyone's in the room, I can't hear anything at the back. Better get them up off the ground so that the people in front aren't blocking all the sounds with their tightly packed together bodies. OK - put them up on the stage . . . Geez these things are heavy - 124 lbs! Times 4. And I wish I had a decent eq so I could notch out some of these feedback frequencies. And damn, my mixer just tumbled down the stairs with the kid who's helping tear down tonight - wish I'd bought that road case.

Have I made my point yet? Can you see where this is going?

I realize this sounds sarcastic and bitchy. My point was not to make fun of you, or demean you. I'm just trying to get it through to you that you've already received a lot of very good advice here. There is a lot more to all of this than meets the eye, and even if your doubled budget is approved, you have the bare minimum for a shoddy MI quality system that will not quite  provide the level of power you need, and won't sound very good.

Sure, you can do it. And you'll learn a lot from it. But there are other ways to learn than making mistakes.

Added Disclaimer: I've greatly simplified things as far as SPL calculations go, and what you'll get out of this system. I think i've been rather optimistic realy
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Dietrich Sider

n_janette

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2004, 02:11:24 AM »

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 17:42



I would bet money on this system NOT being able to cover a room that holds 1000 people.  We do a narrow room that holds ~225 people with a 2x15" + 2" plus 2x18" sub on each side, and that only covers the main audience area.  We still need delayed boxes towards the rear of the room for back fill.



Whoa - do you hand out free earplugs with that rig in that space?  One local venue at which I sometimes drive the board fills the space for up to 150 people with a pair of Mackie SRM450 tops and a (well-powered) single EAW 18" sub.  The space has a low ceiling, and they don't go for crushing volume, but still...

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 17:42


Stop doing this guy a disservice by saying he can buy a complete package for $3500 that'll do the job -- because it won't.  He would simply be WASTING HIS MONEY.
--a


Can we, perhaps, tone down the yelling in this thread and try to come off as semi-professionals?

The point has been made: from an engineering and experienced perspective, they can't purchase a system to cover 1000 people for $4,000.  Now, in the real world, they are probably going to purchase a system anyway, no matter how much anyone on this group yells about it.  What components can we recommend to them as a starter system that will cover a smaller crowd and be upgradable without losing the investment in the initial components?

One (of many) possible small starter systems: 2 x Mackie 1521 powered speakers on stands for mains ($2,000 new), 2 x Mackie 450 powered speakers for monitors ($1,000 used), 1 x 16ish channel board at the Mackie/mixwiz price level ($1,000).  Upgrade path includes adding subs, doubling the mains or moving them to monitors and purchasing better mains, etc.  For "oldies" rock, it might start them out covering about half the crowd they wanted.

Cheers,

-Nathan
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Andy Peters

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2004, 04:23:24 PM »

n_janette wrote on Sat, 24 April 2004 23:11

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 17:42



I would bet money on this system NOT being able to cover a room that holds 1000 people.  We do a narrow room that holds ~225 people with a 2x15" + 2" plus 2x18" sub on each side, and that only covers the main audience area.  We still need delayed boxes towards the rear of the room for back fill.



Whoa - do you hand out free earplugs with that rig in that space?  One local venue at which I sometimes drive the board fills the space for up to 150 people with a pair of Mackie SRM450 tops and a (well-powered) single EAW 18" sub.  The space has a low ceiling, and they don't go for crushing volume, but still...


No, and because competent people are driving the rig, they're not required.  The point about speakers is that you need to COVER the area, and you need enough sub to make kick drums rock.

Quote:

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 17:42


Stop doing this guy a disservice by saying he can buy a complete package for $3500 that'll do the job -- because it won't.  He would simply be WASTING HIS MONEY.
--a


Can we, perhaps, tone down the yelling in this thread and try to come off as semi-professionals?


Sometimes people are obstinate and don't want to listen to hard-learned advice.

Quote:

The point has been made: from an engineering and experienced perspective, they can't purchase a system to cover 1000 people for $4,000.  Now, in the real world, they are probably going to purchase a system anyway, no matter how much anyone on this group yells about it.  What components can we recommend to them as a starter system that will cover a smaller crowd and be upgradable without losing the investment in the initial components?


None.

Quote:

One (of many) possible small starter systems: 2 x Mackie 1521 powered speakers on stands for mains ($2,000 new), 2 x Mackie 450 powered speakers for monitors ($1,000 used), 1 x 16ish channel board at the Mackie/mixwiz price level ($1,000).  Upgrade path includes adding subs, doubling the mains or moving them to monitors and purchasing better mains, etc.  For "oldies" rock, it might start them out covering about half the crowd they wanted.


The problem is that they want their PA to do everything, and we all know that there's no such thing.  If they want to cover 1000 people then they need more PA.  That means more money.  There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Needless to say, the original poster still hasn't addressed the issue of who's going to run this system, much less truck, store and maintain it.

--a
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david423

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Re: System under a budget
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2004, 06:52:38 PM »

Quote:

Needless to say, the original poster still hasn't addressed the issue of who's going to run this system, much less truck, store and maintain it.



That is because i was just asked for advice on what could be gotten with the money. I knew 4000 was not enough for the top of the line. So, i asked you guys what would work and i got a bunch of "nothing is going to work", so i printed off everything that you guys said and gave it to him.

Quote:

Another reason for not wanting top of the line, there will be a college student running this system and basically a turnover every two years b/c it is just a community college.


That is who is going to run it. Not me. I have enough non-commercial small gigs of my own. Truck - i have no clue. Store -in a room at the college. Maintain - have no clue.

Thanks for the input.  
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