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Author Topic: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions  (Read 6977 times)

Terry Martin

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2004, 10:04:52 pm »

Others are correct - for that price range, the Peavey SP-2X's are about the best you will do.  I've had mine for about 4 months.  I will be selling them within the next month, as my new JBL 4732X's will be arriving.  We found that the Peavey's just didn't have enough sh*t.

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Ray Abbitt

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 01:48:05 am »

Terry@SixtyFourEast.com wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 03:04

Others are correct - for that price range, the Peavey SP-2X's are about the best you will do.  I've had mine for about 4 months.  I will be selling them within the next month, as my new JBL 4732X's will be arriving.  We found that the Peavey's just didn't have enough sh*t.
I sure hope you are getting a lot more power to go along with the JBL's. Properly powered and crossed over the SP-2X's can sound damn good.

-ray
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Ray Abbitt

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 02:33:25 am »

Motown wrote on Thu, 22 April 2004 22:27

Thanks again everyone, as always your answers just give me more questions;

What is a UPS exactly?

UninteruptiblePowerSupply. Basically an invertor powered by a battery so that if you lose AC power to the rack, the Drive Rack PA stays powered up.
Quote:

Unfortunately yes, another power amp is on our agenda and it will have the power to push our cabs. Thanks for the tip. We will rent a few amps to see the difference in sound compared to the Nady.
Just keep in mind that the important thing is getting enough power to properly powere your speakers. I'm no big fan of Nady (my experience has been mostly with their wireless mics--and they have been just slightly less dependable and sound slightly worse than a "Mr. Microphone"), but chances are that as long as the amp is used well within its ratings, you probably won't hear any real difference between it and any other modern power amp. Under extreme conditions like low voltage, high temperature, low impedance loads, etc. it is probably more likely to start sounding bad. And it probably will be much less dependable than a QSC, Crown, Crest (or even Peavey for that matter.)
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Piezo tweeters why? The PeavySP2's that are made to be Bi-amped have a horn not a tweeter?

Piezo-electric as opposed to voice coil. And to confuse things a bit more, a piezo element is sometimes attached to a horn. Basically it is a type of crystal [yes guys, I know I'm oversimplifying] that vibrates when an AC signal is applied to it. They are inexpensive, and can be used with nothing more than a resistor and capacitor for a crossover. They are often used in cheap speaker systems and have a reputation for sounding very harsh and metallic. (They have been used in some expensive systems too, but with proper crossovers and a lot more care in design to make them sound good--in the price range you are looking at, avoid them like the plague.)
Quote:

Also researching the YamahaS115IV's they come with Emenence speakers (Yummy) and a 500RMS rating. They look very appealing for the price and performance without getting into the very expensive high end stuff like EV's. But they aren't made to be Bi-amped. Can you run an active X over into a passive cab? How would one modify an passive cab into a bi ampable cab, maybe remove the x over and just wire in speakon connections (wild guess)?
Your Carvins may very well have Eminence drivers. The Yamahas are far from horrible, but you may not be gaining a whole lot from them [I'm not overly enthralled by the vocal clarity from them-your mileage may vary]. As far as bi-amping them goes, Yamaha designed them to work as a system as they are. You could remove the crossover and wire direct to the speakers, but you would be totally on your own when it came to figuring out proper crossover points, and when you got done they might sound worse than they did to begin with. If I was looking at that price range, I still think I'd go with Peavey's. But I think you would be a lot happier spending a little more (assuming you have enough power to make any of them sound good). Since you have subs, you might also want to look at 12" and horn boxes rather than 15". EAW FR129Z for example. Yorkville and Community make some good boxes as long as you avoid their extreme low ends. There are also some good buys in used stuff out there if you know what you are looking for.  
Quote:

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.
Don't get in too much of a hurry. You don't want to have to do it again next year. You didn't mention [or I missed it] where you are located. You might want to consider consulting with a local regional or larger provider. They might be able to steer you in the best direction. (Even asking what they would supply for one of your typical gigs would probably tell you a lot.)

-ray
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Kurt Jeske

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2004, 11:21:53 am »

These may be a little out of your price range but they would be well worth it. Look at the Community XP530 cabs. They are 3 way with a 15. They have a peek around 4K but once you EQ them out they sound great. Lite to. Only about 70lbs. They are 60x40 so they don't through real wide but I've done big rooms (100x120ft) with them and the high end throws all the way back. I use 2 per side in wider rooms.

They retail for around 1000 per cab but I've seen them as low as 600.

http://www.loudspeakers.net/main/index.php?option=articles&a mp;task=viewarticle&sid=17
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n_janette

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2004, 01:20:28 am »

Before recommending a solution, it might be helpful to know more of the parameters of the problem.  For example, for what will the upgraded sound system be used?  In what size venues, with what sized crowds must the system deliver?

OK, off the engineering podium, now I get to have some fun and throw out some speaker suggestions too! Wink

How about some decent quality powered speakers for the new tops?  That would offer the benefit of self-powered tops, which would also free the existing power amp to be used only for the subs.  You could snag a pair of Mackie SRM 450s on eBay for very close to the $800 proposed budget, and a pair of the even better SR 1530 (three way) active speakers just went for $1,000.

Cheers,

-Nathan
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Vic Turner

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2004, 11:58:02 pm »

Quote:

Also researching the YamahaS115IV's they come with Emenence speakers (Yummy) and a 500RMS rating. They look very appealing for the price and performance without getting into the very expensive high end stuff like EV's. But they aren't made to be Bi-amped. Can you run an active X over into a passive cab? How would one modify an passive cab into a bi ampable cab, maybe remove the x over and just wire in speakon connections (wild guess)?
Your Carvins may very well have Eminence drivers. The Yamahas are far from horrible, but you may not be gaining a whole lot from them [I'm not overly enthralled by the vocal clarity from them-your mileage may vary]. As far as bi-amping them goes, Yamaha designed them to work as a system as they are. You could remove the crossover and wire direct to the speakers, but you would be totally on your own when it came to figuring out proper crossover points, and when you got done they might sound worse than they did to begin with. If I was looking at that price range, I still think I'd go with Peavey's. But I think you would be a lot happier spending a little more (assuming you have enough power to make any of them sound good).





Hey Rabbitt,

This is a little confusing because everyone else said they have had good success doing this many times with passive cabs, and there has been an improvement everytime. Just curious what factors could make the sound worse after converting them? To my inexperienced thinking process (trying to use common sense) A crossover would improve any passive set up because there is no bleed, distortion, wrong passive X frequencies to deal with. Also we are going with the DBX DRPA X over too . You'd think just by ear without the DBX DRPA and advise from here one could get a good sound with a basic X over?  The Peavy's are cool too but a good amp to power those would empty our wallets very quickly(1000 rms.




Quote:

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.
Don't get in too much of a hurry. You don't want to have to do it again next year. You didn't mention [or I missed it] where you are located. You might want to consider consulting with a local regional or larger provider. They might be able to steer you in the best direction. (Even asking what they would supply for one of your typical gigs would probably tell you a lot.)

I am in Detroit, the Carvin's are very entry level. It came all together as a PA set up, and is I dunno 7-8 years old at least. But it is not the higher end Carvin stuff you maybe thinking of.

Thanks Vinnie
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Vic Turner

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2004, 12:12:02 am »

n_janette wrote on Sun, 25 April 2004 01:20

Before recommending a solution, it might be helpful to know more of the parameters of the problem.  For example, for what will the upgraded sound system be used?  In what size venues, with what sized crowds must the system deliver?

OK, off the engineering podium, now I get to have some fun and throw out some speaker suggestions too! Wink

How about some decent quality powered speakers for the new tops?  That would offer the benefit of self-powered tops, which would also free the existing power amp to be used only for the subs.  You could snag a pair of Mackie SRM 450s on eBay for very close to the $800 proposed budget, and a pair of the even better SR 1530 (three way) active speakers just went for $1,000.

Cheers,

-Nathan



Hi Nathan,

I am looking at the Yamahas115V 15's right now because they are cheap ($400.00 american for the set) and seem to be the best bang for the buck. I'm talking small to medium venues, we are a band so this will be our road set up. We also need amps, a new board down the road. Cost is a huge concern, but we feel with adequate research we can have a pro sounding set up without remortgaging our home ( I hope. We have decided on the DBX DRPA already it's just a matter what to run it with cabwise?

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Ray Abbitt

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2004, 03:01:56 am »

Motown wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 04:58

This is a little confusing because everyone else said they have had good success doing this many times with passive cabs, and there has been an improvement everytime. Just curious what factors could make the sound worse after converting them? To my inexperienced thinking process (trying to use common sense) A crossover would improve any passive set up because there is no bleed, distortion, wrong passive X frequencies to deal with. Also we are going with the DBX DRPA X over too . You'd think just by ear without the DBX DRPA and advise from here one could get a good sound with a basic X over?  The Peavy's are cool too but a good amp to power those would empty our wallets very quickly(1000 rms.

Because crossovers do more than just split the frequencies. They may make up for phasing problems, inherent peaks or nulls in the response of the drivers, or any other number of things that aren't easily corrected for. If we were talking about Joe's custom "professional" pa speakers, you could rightfully assume that the reason there is no facility for biamping them is to avoid the cost of the extra connectors. However in the case of Yamaha, they are a little bit more reputable company, and there is a good chance that they didn't provide the option of bi-amping their boxes because their crossover is (in their opinion) a required piece of the system. And as a matter of fact, quite often it is difficult to get a good sound by ear with a basic crossover if you don't have reasonable starting points for crossover frequency, delay and horn equalisation. And dsp systems like the DRPA are not magic bullets either. There are a couple of local bands here that have DRPA's gathering dust becuase they couldn't get any better results with them than they could with a Peavey or Behringer active crossover. From what I've seen, you are probably going to be disappointed with the Yamahas. They may be marginally better than your Carvins, but they are not going to be the magic fix for your problem.
Quote:

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.

I am in Detroit, the Carvin's are very entry level. It came all together as a PA set up, and is I dunno 7-8 years old at least. But it is not the higher end Carvin stuff you maybe thinking of.


From what you describe, your system sounds exactly like what my guitar teacher started out with about 10 years ago. The Carvin board has been replaced (with a larger Carvin board) and the (way too small) amp is long gone, but he is still using the Carvin speakers, bi-amped with Peavey amps and a Peavey active crossover. It isn't a system that I would buy (neither are the Yamahas), but their sound is better than decent. He uses the system with a 5 to 8 piece band, mostly country and/or classic rock. They tried some other speakers before they did the other upgrades and didn't see a noticable difference.

I still highly suggest that you get a local (regional) provider to give you some help in figuring out what to upgrade. Like I said earlier, get a quote from them as to what they would provide for one of your average gigs. Before you buy any speakers or amps, try renting some additional amps and if at all possible a set of the speakers that you are considering. Otherwise, I think you are going to be very unhappy with the results. (If you weren't a few thousand miles away, I'd come take a listen, but I don't think you want to pay my transportation from California.) But I'll bet you can find somebody a little more local who can give you some worthwhile suggestions.

-ray
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Vic Turner

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2004, 04:35:07 pm »

Thanks Ray, that makes a lot of sense now. We have been discussing keeping the Yamies stock for a while if we make a change and going from there.
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john abney

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2004, 10:37:14 pm »

Agree with the Bag End recommendation. If they are too pricey right now - the bi-ampable, arena-type stuff and ELFs aren't cheap -  check out OAP. (I am not a dealer for OAP; a friend is and I have heard them on a number of occasions.)

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