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[Vic Turner]

I searched already but I would really like your opinions and your ears opinions if your will. We are a band running fooey gear, which I thought was O.k. untill I started to visit here and get an idea of how professonal sound people do things and not what we are told at your average music store. Well we are getting an active X over, leaning towards a DBX driverack PA processor. But anyway out tops now our Carvins. Before you yell at me we want to upgrade badly. With a budget of $700-800 what would be the best bang for the buck in your experiance? What about a 3 way speaker set up? Where maybe a speaker box contains 12 or 15, a 4 and a 1 comp tweeter? Some of my colleagues feel in thoery this would suit our needs, but in reality and practicality would this be the case or in that price range is there just a 15 and tweeter combo out there that rocks? One of our helpful members here recommended the Yamaha club series 15's. I heard good things about these and they are cheap, but with a little more cash to work with what else could we get into? Thanks in advance!!!!!

[Fred Garrett]

Are you saying you have $800 for a pair of cabinets, or $800 for each cabinet?

 

[Timmahh]

the way i see and hear it, its like this, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. kind of like buying a Hondo Strat and expection to hear a 1967 Fender strat. it just isnt going to work.. but with that being said, you can look and find some decent quality gear>
Rule Number 1. DONT BE IN A RUSH, do some reasearch, then buy what you can afford, but gives you some room for growth for the future.
Rule Number 2. if you spend 400 per cab. you ll get 400 per cab sound, UNLESS you find a gem of a deal via a decent reseller, friend, pawnshop( good luck on this one, most want 3 times what it was worth new, IF they know what they have)or even EBAY, ive build basically my entire pa from ebay> and only spent about 1/4 to 1/3 of what i would of had i bought new!!!
Rule number 3. BE wise and KNOWLEGED!!!! if the first 2 are out of reach, number 3 will get you far with what you have to work for!!!!
Good Luck,
Timmahh!!  I want subs so LOW, it ll make you POO!!!

[Kevin Ballard]

Lets stand back a little first:-

Your budget is small to create a large differance on the overall sound. Real quality sound would come from a simple setup properly powered. So are you using enough power amp? If not you would be amazed how much differance a bigger amp would make. (you don't specify your power amp or speaker model). Try and borrow a suitable sized amp to try for a night and set the gain correctly (study hall has items on gain and prper amp size) It may well be that will light up your current system better, if however you have adequate power, the next step would be quality speakers, Yammy clubs are OK in this price range as are Yorkville over in the states. Just changing your speakers without proper power will disappoint you.

The next question would be transport because you then could look at another amp and subs, but I suspect thats some way off.

So in summary, don't replace cheap gear with cheap gear and expect fantastic results. Clarity comes from POWER and decent unclipped speakers. Nothing else has a dramatic effect, although subtle benefits can be achived with gadgets and such, it becomes a case of bigger spends for smaller returns.

I have assumed you wish to keep the package small and portable so if you envisage otherwise, then tailor your opinion to suit.

HTH

[Mike McNany]

Motown wrote on Tue, 20 April 2004 22:12

I searched already but I would really like your opinions and your ears opinions if your will. We are a band running fooey gear, which I thought was O.k. untill I started to visit here and get an idea of how professonal sound people do things and not what we are told at your average music store. Well we are getting an active X over, leaning towards a DBX driverack PA processor. But anyway out tops now our Carvins. Before you yell at me we want to upgrade badly. With a budget of $700-800 what would be the best bang for the buck in your experiance? What about a 3 way speaker set up? Where maybe a speaker box contains 12 or 15, a 4 and a 1 comp tweeter? Some of my colleagues feel in thoery this would suit our needs, but in reality and practicality would this be the case or in that price range is there just a 15 and tweeter combo out there that rocks? One of our helpful members here recommended the Yamaha club series 15's. I heard good things about these and they are cheap, but with a little more cash to work with what else could we get into? Thanks in advance!!!!!

I suspect you are talking the entire speaker budget?

Which tops do you HAVE? As I mentioned elsewhere the TR1502s are not bad when biamped. I do prefer the Peavey SP2 in that price range. They just came out with an upgraded model so the older models (used Gs or Xs) or leftover stock SP2Xs should save you some $ and improve your sound. Yorkville Elite series are maybe a step up from that. IF your speakers have a piezio high driver, a set of Yamaha S115IVs would be a noticable improvement over that and can be found at Musician's Friend on closeout (series V has been released) for $200 each. However they CANNOT be biamped stock.

Going to a 3-way cab appears to be a huge improvement BASED ON home stereo knowledge. But making a high PA power, projecting cab with a 3-way crossover costs good $. That's why most 3 ways are either cheapees or big $.

Boomerweps

[Vic Turner]

Right now the only thing we have decided to purchase is a Dbx driverack PA processor. So this is my first step to researching a purchasing decision for new 15's. We currently have Carvin Tops I think they are the basic 15's w/ horn no ports or anything, the website no longer has the old items so I can't get an exact model number, but they suck. As far as our amp it's a Nady 2400. I was never satisfied with the Carvins at all (and these posts will convince my band the amp is next). When I say $800 it's for a pair. I understand the analogy with guitars, we always find guitars that are inexpensive with decent brand names, with a pup upgrade or pre amp for a bass we get them to rock! I guess I'm looking for the same thing with speakers. Whether it be Ebay, GC, or I build the darn things myself, we  find a way and it starts with doing things like this. I was given some examples of brand names so I will start my research there. I understand you get what you pay for but the Carvins are not very good and I know we could get a better sounding cab. As far as an amp we are running a Nady 2400 for both the tops and subs(Behrenger1800's) Without re-mortgaging my house I want to get some better tops, w/ the Dbx X over and decent tops we can maybe take some of the burden off the Behrenger 18's (i hope). Power amps I heard you need an amp that is double the power you speakers are rated for, is this true and why? From what I gather an Amp will make the most difference. I plan on getting the X over, 15's, then maybe the amp, in that order over a period of months, or whenever some gig money helps pay for it. This may all change since I really am just getting my feet wet with all this fun stuff and as I gather more info it may change some things. Thanks again

[Ray Abbitt]

Motown wrote on Wed, 21 April 2004 21:19

Right now the only thing we have decided to purchase is a Dbx driverack PA processor.

Just don't forget to spend a couple of dollars for a small UPS for the Driverack PA or you will end up buying more speakers (well, at least replacement drivers) than you are planning on. (Turning it on with the amps on creates a transient that WILL destroy speakers.)

Quote:

So this is my first step to researching a purchasing decision for new 15's. We currently have Carvin Tops I think they are the basic 15's w/ horn no ports or anything, the website no longer has the old items so I can't get an exact model number, but they suck. As far as our amp it's a Nady 2400. I was never satisfied with the Carvins at all (and these posts will convince my band the amp is next).

Have you always underpowered the Carvins that badly? Maybe you should try a little experiment before you get in such a hurry to replace them. Try running JUST the Carvins off your Nady (either one per channel or better yet bridged) and see if they don't sound a whole lot better. Buying new speakers isn't going to make a whole lot of difference if you don't have the power to drive them correctly.

Quote:

I understand you get what you pay for but the Carvins are not very good and I know we could get a better sounding cab. As far as an amp we are running a Nady 2400 for both the tops and subs(Behrenger1800's)

Crap in, crap out. Your Nady should put out just about enough power for either a pair of the Behringer subs or a pair of typical MI level 15 + horn tops. Right now you would probably be better off if you left the subs at home and ran just the Carvins.

Quote:

Without re-mortgaging my house I want to get some better tops, w/ the Dbx X over and decent tops we can maybe take some of the burden off the Behrenger 18's (i hope). Power amps I heard you need an amp that is double the power you speakers are rated for, is this true and why? From what I gather an Amp will make the most difference.

Get thee to the study hall. Start here http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/studyjump.php?pdf=watts for a quick answer to your question. Then go here http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/ab_index.php and you will find a lot more useful info.

Quote:

I plan on getting the X over, 15's, then maybe the amp, in that order over a period of months, or whenever some gig money helps pay for it. This may all change since I really am just getting my feet wet with all this fun stuff and as I gather more info it may change some things. Thanks again

I think you really need to re-think this just a bit. Getting the crossover first is not a bad idea, but until you get more amps, I don't think you really want to spend money on replacement tops. Unless your Carvins have piezo tweeters (which I doubt if they are made so that you can bi-amp them) you would be better off buying the X over and a couple more amps first. Otherwise your new speakers might not sound any better than your old ones.
-ray

[Nathan Schwarzkopf]

--subs-- BAG END just about as low as they come and good sounding too.

[Vic Turner]

Thanks again everyone, as always your answers just give me more questions;

.[/quote]Just don't forget to spend a couple of dollars for a small UPS for the Driverack PA or you will end up buying more speakers (well, at least replacement drivers) than you are planning on. (Turning it on with the amps on creates a transient that WILL destroy speakers.)

What is a UPS exactly?

.[/quote]Have you always underpowered the Carvins that badly? Maybe you should try a little experiment before you get in such a hurry to replace them. Try running JUST the Carvins off your Nady (either one per channel or better yet bridged) and see if they don't sound a whole lot better. Buying new speakers isn't going to make a whole lot of difference if you don't have the power to drive them correctly.


Unfortunately yes, another power amp is on our agenda and it will have the power to push our cabs. Thanks for the tip. We will rent a few amps to see the difference in sound compared to the Nady.



[/quote]
I think you really need to re-think this just a bit. Getting the crossover first is not a bad idea, but until you get more amps, I don't think you really want to spend money on replacement tops. Unless your Carvins have piezo tweeters (which I doubt if they are made so that you can bi-amp them) you would be better off buying the X over and a couple more amps first. Otherwise your new speakers might not sound any better than your old ones.
-ray[/quote]

Piezo tweeters why? The PeavySP2's that are made to be Bi-amped have a horn not a tweeter? Also researching the YamahaS115IV's they come with Emenence speakers (Yummy) and a 500RMS rating. They look very appealing for the price and performance without getting into the very expensive high end stuff like EV's. But they aren't made to be Bi-amped. Can you run an active X over into a passive cab? How would one modify an passive cab into a bi ampable cab, maybe remove the x over and just wire in speakon connections (wild guess)?

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.

[Andy Peters]

Motown wrote on Thu, 22 April 2004 14:27

What is a UPS exactly?

"Uninterruptable power supply" -- like for your computer.  The DRPA doesn't have output muting, so it can send a POP through your speakers if you power it off before shutting down the amps (or if your mains power glitches).

--a

[Terry Martin]

Others are correct - for that price range, the Peavey SP-2X's are about the best you will do.  I've had mine for about 4 months.  I will be selling them within the next month, as my new JBL 4732X's will be arriving.  We found that the Peavey's just didn't have enough sh*t.

[Ray Abbitt]

Terry@SixtyFourEast.com wrote on Fri, 23 April 2004 03:04

Others are correct - for that price range, the Peavey SP-2X's are about the best you will do.  I've had mine for about 4 months.  I will be selling them within the next month, as my new JBL 4732X's will be arriving.  We found that the Peavey's just didn't have enough sh*t.

I sure hope you are getting a lot more power to go along with the JBL's. Properly powered and crossed over the SP-2X's can sound damn good.

-ray

[Ray Abbitt]

Motown wrote on Thu, 22 April 2004 22:27

Thanks again everyone, as always your answers just give me more questions; What is a UPS exactly?

UninteruptiblePowerSupply. Basically an invertor powered by a battery so that if you lose AC power to the rack, the Drive Rack PA stays powered up.

Quote:

Unfortunately yes, another power amp is on our agenda and it will have the power to push our cabs. Thanks for the tip. We will rent a few amps to see the difference in sound compared to the Nady.

Just keep in mind that the important thing is getting enough power to properly powere your speakers. I'm no big fan of Nady (my experience has been mostly with their wireless mics--and they have been just slightly less dependable and sound slightly worse than a "Mr. Microphone"), but chances are that as long as the amp is used well within its ratings, you probably won't hear any real difference between it and any other modern power amp. Under extreme conditions like low voltage, high temperature, low impedance loads, etc. it is probably more likely to start sounding bad. And it probably will be much less dependable than a QSC, Crown, Crest (or even Peavey for that matter.)

Quote:

Piezo tweeters why? The PeavySP2's that are made to be Bi-amped have a horn not a tweeter?

Piezo-electric as opposed to voice coil. And to confuse things a bit more, a piezo element is sometimes attached to a horn. Basically it is a type of crystal [yes guys, I know I'm oversimplifying] that vibrates when an AC signal is applied to it. They are inexpensive, and can be used with nothing more than a resistor and capacitor for a crossover. They are often used in cheap speaker systems and have a reputation for sounding very harsh and metallic. (They have been used in some expensive systems too, but with proper crossovers and a lot more care in design to make them sound good--in the price range you are looking at, avoid them like the plague.)

Quote:

Also researching the YamahaS115IV's they come with Emenence speakers (Yummy) and a 500RMS rating. They look very appealing for the price and performance without getting into the very expensive high end stuff like EV's. But they aren't made to be Bi-amped. Can you run an active X over into a passive cab? How would one modify an passive cab into a bi ampable cab, maybe remove the x over and just wire in speakon connections (wild guess)?

Your Carvins may very well have Eminence drivers. The Yamahas are far from horrible, but you may not be gaining a whole lot from them [I'm not overly enthralled by the vocal clarity from them-your mileage may vary]. As far as bi-amping them goes, Yamaha designed them to work as a system as they are. You could remove the crossover and wire direct to the speakers, but you would be totally on your own when it came to figuring out proper crossover points, and when you got done they might sound worse than they did to begin with. If I was looking at that price range, I still think I'd go with Peavey's. But I think you would be a lot happier spending a little more (assuming you have enough power to make any of them sound good). Since you have subs, you might also want to look at 12" and horn boxes rather than 15". EAW FR129Z for example. Yorkville and Community make some good boxes as long as you avoid their extreme low ends. There are also some good buys in used stuff out there if you know what you are looking for.  

Quote:

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.

Don't get in too much of a hurry. You don't want to have to do it again next year. You didn't mention [or I missed it] where you are located. You might want to consider consulting with a local regional or larger provider. They might be able to steer you in the best direction. (Even asking what they would supply for one of your typical gigs would probably tell you a lot.)

-ray

[Kurt Jeske]

These may be a little out of your price range but they would be well worth it. Look at the Community XP530 cabs. They are 3 way with a 15. They have a peek around 4K but once you EQ them out they sound great. Lite to. Only about 70lbs. They are 60x40 so they don't through real wide but I've done big rooms (100x120ft) with them and the high end throws all the way back. I use 2 per side in wider rooms.

They retail for around 1000 per cab but I've seen them as low as 600.

http://www.loudspeakers.net/main/index.php?option=articles&a mp;task=viewarticle&sid=17

[n_janette]

Before recommending a solution, it might be helpful to know more of the parameters of the problem.  For example, for what will the upgraded sound system be used?  In what size venues, with what sized crowds must the system deliver?

OK, off the engineering podium, now I get to have some fun and throw out some speaker suggestions too!

How about some decent quality powered speakers for the new tops?  That would offer the benefit of self-powered tops, which would also free the existing power amp to be used only for the subs.  You could snag a pair of Mackie SRM 450s on eBay for very close to the $800 proposed budget, and a pair of the even better SR 1530 (three way) active speakers just went for $1,000.

Cheers,

-Nathan

[Vic Turner]

Quote:

Also researching the YamahaS115IV's they come with Emenence speakers (Yummy) and a 500RMS rating. They look very appealing for the price and performance without getting into the very expensive high end stuff like EV's. But they aren't made to be Bi-amped. Can you run an active X over into a passive cab? How would one modify an passive cab into a bi ampable cab, maybe remove the x over and just wire in speakon connections (wild guess)?

Your Carvins may very well have Eminence drivers. The Yamahas are far from horrible, but you may not be gaining a whole lot from them [I'm not overly enthralled by the vocal clarity from them-your mileage may vary]. As far as bi-amping them goes, Yamaha designed them to work as a system as they are. You could remove the crossover and wire direct to the speakers, but you would be totally on your own when it came to figuring out proper crossover points, and when you got done they might sound worse than they did to begin with. If I was looking at that price range, I still think I'd go with Peavey's. But I think you would be a lot happier spending a little more (assuming you have enough power to make any of them sound good).





Hey Rabbitt,

This is a little confusing because everyone else said they have had good success doing this many times with passive cabs, and there has been an improvement everytime. Just curious what factors could make the sound worse after converting them? To my inexperienced thinking process (trying to use common sense) A crossover would improve any passive set up because there is no bleed, distortion, wrong passive X frequencies to deal with. Also we are going with the DBX DRPA X over too . You'd think just by ear without the DBX DRPA and advise from here one could get a good sound with a basic X over?  The Peavy's are cool too but a good amp to power those would empty our wallets very quickly(1000 rms.

Quote:

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.

Don't get in too much of a hurry. You don't want to have to do it again next year. You didn't mention [or I missed it] where you are located. You might want to consider consulting with a local regional or larger provider. They might be able to steer you in the best direction. (Even asking what they would supply for one of your typical gigs would probably tell you a lot.)

I am in Detroit, the Carvin's are very entry level. It came all together as a PA set up, and is I dunno 7-8 years old at least. But it is not the higher end Carvin stuff you maybe thinking of.

Thanks Vinnie

[Vic Turner]

n_janette wrote on Sun, 25 April 2004 01:20

Before recommending a solution, it might be helpful to know more of the parameters of the problem.  For example, for what will the upgraded sound system be used?  In what size venues, with what sized crowds must the system deliver? OK, off the engineering podium, now I get to have some fun and throw out some speaker suggestions too! How about some decent quality powered speakers for the new tops?  That would offer the benefit of self-powered tops, which would also free the existing power amp to be used only for the subs.  You could snag a pair of Mackie SRM 450s on eBay for very close to the $800 proposed budget, and a pair of the even better SR 1530 (three way) active speakers just went for $1,000. Cheers, -Nathan

Hi Nathan,

I am looking at the Yamahas115V 15's right now because they are cheap ($400.00 american for the set) and seem to be the best bang for the buck. I'm talking small to medium venues, we are a band so this will be our road set up. We also need amps, a new board down the road. Cost is a huge concern, but we feel with adequate research we can have a pro sounding set up without remortgaging our home ( I hope. We have decided on the DBX DRPA already it's just a matter what to run it with cabwise?

[Ray Abbitt]

Motown wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 04:58

This is a little confusing because everyone else said they have had good success doing this many times with passive cabs, and there has been an improvement everytime. Just curious what factors could make the sound worse after converting them? To my inexperienced thinking process (trying to use common sense) A crossover would improve any passive set up because there is no bleed, distortion, wrong passive X frequencies to deal with. Also we are going with the DBX DRPA X over too . You'd think just by ear without the DBX DRPA and advise from here one could get a good sound with a basic X over?  The Peavy's are cool too but a good amp to power those would empty our wallets very quickly(1000 rms.

Because crossovers do more than just split the frequencies. They may make up for phasing problems, inherent peaks or nulls in the response of the drivers, or any other number of things that aren't easily corrected for. If we were talking about Joe's custom "professional" pa speakers, you could rightfully assume that the reason there is no facility for biamping them is to avoid the cost of the extra connectors. However in the case of Yamaha, they are a little bit more reputable company, and there is a good chance that they didn't provide the option of bi-amping their boxes because their crossover is (in their opinion) a required piece of the system. And as a matter of fact, quite often it is difficult to get a good sound by ear with a basic crossover if you don't have reasonable starting points for crossover frequency, delay and horn equalisation. And dsp systems like the DRPA are not magic bullets either. There are a couple of local bands here that have DRPA's gathering dust becuase they couldn't get any better results with them than they could with a Peavey or Behringer active crossover. From what I've seen, you are probably going to be disappointed with the Yamahas. They may be marginally better than your Carvins, but they are not going to be the magic fix for your problem.

Quote:

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade. I am in Detroit, the Carvin's are very entry level. It came all together as a PA set up, and is I dunno 7-8 years old at least. But it is not the higher end Carvin stuff you maybe thinking of.

From what you describe, your system sounds exactly like what my guitar teacher started out with about 10 years ago. The Carvin board has been replaced (with a larger Carvin board) and the (way too small) amp is long gone, but he is still using the Carvin speakers, bi-amped with Peavey amps and a Peavey active crossover. It isn't a system that I would buy (neither are the Yamahas), but their sound is better than decent. He uses the system with a 5 to 8 piece band, mostly country and/or classic rock. They tried some other speakers before they did the other upgrades and didn't see a noticable difference.

I still highly suggest that you get a local (regional) provider to give you some help in figuring out what to upgrade. Like I said earlier, get a quote from them as to what they would provide for one of your average gigs. Before you buy any speakers or amps, try renting some additional amps and if at all possible a set of the speakers that you are considering. Otherwise, I think you are going to be very unhappy with the results. (If you weren't a few thousand miles away, I'd come take a listen, but I don't think you want to pay my transportation from California.) But I'll bet you can find somebody a little more local who can give you some worthwhile suggestions.

-ray

[Vic Turner]

Thanks Ray, that makes a lot of sense now. We have been discussing keeping the Yamies stock for a while if we make a change and going from there.

[john abney]

Agree with the Bag End recommendation. If they are too pricey right now - the bi-ampable, arena-type stuff and ELFs aren't cheap -  check out OAP. (I am not a dealer for OAP; a friend is and I have heard them on a number of occasions.)