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Author Topic: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions  (Read 6984 times)

Vic Turner

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Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« on: April 20, 2004, 10:12:30 pm »

I searched already but I would really like your opinions and your ears opinions if your will. We are a band running fooey gear, which I thought was O.k. untill I started to visit here and get an idea of how professonal sound people do things and not what we are told at your average music store. Well we are getting an active X over, leaning towards a DBX driverack PA processor. But anyway out tops now our Carvins. Before you yell at me we want to upgrade badly. With a budget of $700-800 what would be the best bang for the buck in your experiance? What about a 3 way speaker set up? Where maybe a speaker box contains 12 or 15, a 4 and a 1 comp tweeter? Some of my colleagues feel in thoery this would suit our needs, but in reality and practicality would this be the case or in that price range is there just a 15 and tweeter combo out there that rocks? One of our helpful members here recommended the Yamaha club series 15's. I heard good things about these and they are cheap, but with a little more cash to work with what else could we get into? Thanks in advance!!!!!
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Fred Garrett

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2004, 12:34:45 am »

Are you saying you have $800 for a pair of cabinets, or $800 for each cabinet?

 
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Timmahh

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2004, 01:25:20 am »

the way i see and hear it, its like this, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. kind of like buying a Hondo Strat and expection to hear a 1967 Fender strat. it just isnt going to work.. but with that being said, you can look and find some decent quality gear>
Rule Number 1. DONT BE IN A RUSH, do some reasearch, then buy what you can afford, but gives you some room for growth for the future.
Rule Number 2. if you spend 400 per cab. you ll get 400 per cab sound, UNLESS you find a gem of a deal via a decent reseller, friend, pawnshop( good luck on this one, most want 3 times what it was worth new, IF they know what they have)or even EBAY, ive build basically my entire pa from ebay> and only spent about 1/4 to 1/3 of what i would of had i bought new!!!
Rule number 3. BE wise and KNOWLEGED!!!! if the first 2 are out of reach, number 3 will get you far with what you have to work for!!!!
Good Luck,
Timmahh!!  I want subs so LOW, it ll make you POO!!!
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Timmahh!!!

Kevin Ballard

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2004, 05:27:14 am »

Lets stand back a little first:-

Your budget is small to create a large differance on the overall sound. Real quality sound would come from a simple setup properly powered. So are you using enough power amp? If not you would be amazed how much differance a bigger amp would make. (you don't specify your power amp or speaker model). Try and borrow a suitable sized amp to try for a night and set the gain correctly (study hall has items on gain and prper amp size) It may well be that will light up your current system better, if however you have adequate power, the next step would be quality speakers, Yammy clubs are OK in this price range as are Yorkville over in the states. Just changing your speakers without proper power will disappoint you. Crying or Very Sad

The next question would be transport because you then could look at another amp and subs, but I suspect thats some way off.

So in summary, don't replace cheap gear with cheap gear and expect fantastic results. Clarity comes from POWER and decent unclipped speakers. Nothing else has a dramatic effect, although subtle benefits can be achived with gadgets and such, it becomes a case of bigger spends for smaller returns.

I have assumed you wish to keep the package small and portable so if you envisage otherwise, then tailor your opinion to suit.

HTH



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Kevin Ballard

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Mike McNany

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2004, 11:35:48 am »

Motown wrote on Tue, 20 April 2004 22:12

I searched already but I would really like your opinions and your ears opinions if your will. We are a band running fooey gear, which I thought was O.k. untill I started to visit here and get an idea of how professonal sound people do things and not what we are told at your average music store. Well we are getting an active X over, leaning towards a DBX driverack PA processor. But anyway out tops now our Carvins. Before you yell at me we want to upgrade badly. With a budget of $700-800 what would be the best bang for the buck in your experiance? What about a 3 way speaker set up? Where maybe a speaker box contains 12 or 15, a 4 and a 1 comp tweeter? Some of my colleagues feel in thoery this would suit our needs, but in reality and practicality would this be the case or in that price range is there just a 15 and tweeter combo out there that rocks? One of our helpful members here recommended the Yamaha club series 15's. I heard good things about these and they are cheap, but with a little more cash to work with what else could we get into? Thanks in advance!!!!!


I suspect you are talking the entire speaker budget?

Which tops do you HAVE? As I mentioned elsewhere the TR1502s are not bad when biamped. I do prefer the Peavey SP2 in that price range. They just came out with an upgraded model so the older models (used Gs or Xs) or leftover stock SP2Xs should save you some $ and improve your sound. Yorkville Elite series are maybe a step up from that. IF your speakers have a piezio high driver, a set of Yamaha S115IVs would be a noticable improvement over that and can be found at Musician's Friend on closeout (series V has been released) for $200 each. However they CANNOT be biamped stock.

Going to a 3-way cab appears to be a huge improvement BASED ON home stereo knowledge. But making a high PA power, projecting cab with a 3-way crossover costs good $. That's why most 3 ways are either cheapees or big $.

Boomerweps
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Vic Turner

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2004, 04:19:49 pm »

Right now the only thing we have decided to purchase is a Dbx driverack PA processor. So this is my first step to researching a purchasing decision for new 15's. We currently have Carvin Tops I think they are the basic 15's w/ horn no ports or anything, the website no longer has the old items so I can't get an exact model number, but they suck. As far as our amp it's a Nady 2400. I was never satisfied with the Carvins at all (and these posts will convince my band the amp is next). When I say $800 it's for a pair. I understand the analogy with guitars, we always find guitars that are inexpensive with decent brand names, with a pup upgrade or pre amp for a bass we get them to rock! I guess I'm looking for the same thing with speakers. Whether it be Ebay, GC, or I build the darn things myself, we  find a way and it starts with doing things like this. I was given some examples of brand names so I will start my research there. I understand you get what you pay for but the Carvins are not very good and I know we could get a better sounding cab. As far as an amp we are running a Nady 2400 for both the tops and subs(Behrenger1800's) Without re-mortgaging my house I want to get some better tops, w/ the Dbx X over and decent tops we can maybe take some of the burden off the Behrenger 18's (i hope). Power amps I heard you need an amp that is double the power you speakers are rated for, is this true and why? From what I gather an Amp will make the most difference. I plan on getting the X over, 15's, then maybe the amp, in that order over a period of months, or whenever some gig money helps pay for it. This may all change since I really am just getting my feet wet with all this fun stuff and as I gather more info it may change some things. Thanks again
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Ray Abbitt

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2004, 05:40:27 pm »

Motown wrote on Wed, 21 April 2004 21:19

Right now the only thing we have decided to purchase is a Dbx driverack PA processor.
Just don't forget to spend a couple of dollars for a small UPS for the Driverack PA or you will end up buying more speakers (well, at least replacement drivers) than you are planning on. (Turning it on with the amps on creates a transient that WILL destroy speakers.)
Quote:

So this is my first step to researching a purchasing decision for new 15's. We currently have Carvin Tops I think they are the basic 15's w/ horn no ports or anything, the website no longer has the old items so I can't get an exact model number, but they suck. As far as our amp it's a Nady 2400. I was never satisfied with the Carvins at all (and these posts will convince my band the amp is next).
Have you always underpowered the Carvins that badly? Maybe you should try a little experiment before you get in such a hurry to replace them. Try running JUST the Carvins off your Nady (either one per channel or better yet bridged) and see if they don't sound a whole lot better. Buying new speakers isn't going to make a whole lot of difference if you don't have the power to drive them correctly.
Quote:

I understand you get what you pay for but the Carvins are not very good and I know we could get a better sounding cab. As far as an amp we are running a Nady 2400 for both the tops and subs(Behrenger1800's)

Crap in, crap out. Your Nady should put out just about enough power for either a pair of the Behringer subs or a pair of typical MI level 15 + horn tops. Right now you would probably be better off if you left the subs at home and ran just the Carvins.
Quote:

Without re-mortgaging my house I want to get some better tops, w/ the Dbx X over and decent tops we can maybe take some of the burden off the Behrenger 18's (i hope). Power amps I heard you need an amp that is double the power you speakers are rated for, is this true and why? From what I gather an Amp will make the most difference.
Get thee to the study hall. Start here http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/studyjump.php?pdf=watts for a quick answer to your question. Then go here http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/ab_index.php and you will find a lot more useful info.
Quote:

I plan on getting the X over, 15's, then maybe the amp, in that order over a period of months, or whenever some gig money helps pay for it. This may all change since I really am just getting my feet wet with all this fun stuff and as I gather more info it may change some things. Thanks again

I think you really need to re-think this just a bit. Getting the crossover first is not a bad idea, but until you get more amps, I don't think you really want to spend money on replacement tops. Unless your Carvins have piezo tweeters (which I doubt if they are made so that you can bi-amp them) you would be better off buying the X over and a couple more amps first. Otherwise your new speakers might not sound any better than your old ones.
-ray
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Nathan Schwarzkopf

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2004, 05:49:36 pm »

--subs-- BAG END just about as low as they come and good sounding too.
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Vic Turner

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 05:27:00 pm »

Thanks again everyone, as always your answers just give me more questions;

.[/quote]Just don't forget to spend a couple of dollars for a small UPS for the Driverack PA or you will end up buying more speakers (well, at least replacement drivers) than you are planning on. (Turning it on with the amps on creates a transient that WILL destroy speakers.)

What is a UPS exactly?

.[/quote]Have you always underpowered the Carvins that badly? Maybe you should try a little experiment before you get in such a hurry to replace them. Try running JUST the Carvins off your Nady (either one per channel or better yet bridged) and see if they don't sound a whole lot better. Buying new speakers isn't going to make a whole lot of difference if you don't have the power to drive them correctly.


Unfortunately yes, another power amp is on our agenda and it will have the power to push our cabs. Thanks for the tip. We will rent a few amps to see the difference in sound compared to the Nady.



[/quote]
I think you really need to re-think this just a bit. Getting the crossover first is not a bad idea, but until you get more amps, I don't think you really want to spend money on replacement tops. Unless your Carvins have piezo tweeters (which I doubt if they are made so that you can bi-amp them) you would be better off buying the X over and a couple more amps first. Otherwise your new speakers might not sound any better than your old ones.
-ray[/quote]

Piezo tweeters why? The PeavySP2's that are made to be Bi-amped have a horn not a tweeter? Also researching the YamahaS115IV's they come with Emenence speakers (Yummy) and a 500RMS rating. They look very appealing for the price and performance without getting into the very expensive high end stuff like EV's. But they aren't made to be Bi-amped. Can you run an active X over into a passive cab? How would one modify an passive cab into a bi ampable cab, maybe remove the x over and just wire in speakon connections (wild guess)?

Another thing our old Carvin Pa system is going up for sale. A 12 channel board, 15's, 12 monitors, and a horribly underpowered Carvin amp won't be doing us much good. I'd rather have the cash to upgrade.
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Andy Peters

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Re: Upgrading our top speaker cabs...suggestions
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2004, 07:35:27 pm »

Motown wrote on Thu, 22 April 2004 14:27

What is a UPS exactly?


"Uninterruptable power supply" -- like for your computer.  The DRPA doesn't have output muting, so it can send a POP through your speakers if you power it off before shutting down the amps (or if your mains power glitches).

--a
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