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Author Topic: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers  (Read 10498 times)

Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2004, 09:42:36 PM »

Many people will be able to give you good advice here, you will need to go and listen for yourself....

Personally I would suggest you may want to go out and listen to Yamaha's new Club V series...... For 320ish odd dollars you get a 15" cabinet with a 2"(!) horn and up to 1000 watts power handling..... I would suggest you power these with a RMX 2450 (good price/power ratio) and use one channel for each side.

Once you settle on a top box and amps, you have afew choices.

Since money seems to be tight, you could just get a basic active crossover (look at the dbx 223XL)keep your Behringer subs and use your nady amp to send everything under 85Hz to them. Your bass wont be very good, but you will have some.

The next choice would be to add subs and a new amp for them..... Here again Yamaha's club V series has a possible option. They have a single single 18" sub that is ok for the money, and you could power both of them *one under each top* by parelling the boxes and running a 2nd RMX2450 in bridged mono.

The next upgrade would be to add a decent stereo FOH eq (check out the ART 355, or the DBX 231)

The last upgrade of course would be your desk... IT may be ok, and is certainly on the lower end of the things you should be worried about, but should you have the opportunity and you cant afford a new allenheath/soundcraft/mackie/etc... maybe look for something used so long as the console doesn't have to much wear on it, it is possible for you to get a deal here.

Of course, the best thing for you to do is go to a MI store and just listen for awhile..... in the end it also might make sense to just get little bits and pieces.... start with the mains, the mains amp and the crossover....

As an aside note...I know that none of these are absolutely spectacular pieces, but its all reasonably inexpensive equipment. Is of adequate quality for what he is trying to do, and he shouldn't have any trouble finding anything....

Karl P
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Baron Gray

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2004, 10:52:04 PM »

Hi Vinnie
I would be more likely to take a different approach to that of the other posters. I would suggest getting the FOH EQ first as in my dealings with Carvin gear they need a bit of working over in the lower mids and highs. Can you get some help from a local sound guy with a bit more experience? I would not go and trash your current system until you are sure that you are getting the best that the system is capable of delivering.
The way you use the EQ in the channel strips and the way you setup your gain structures together with speaker placement, monitoring, microphone choice and use, etc, all contribute to the clarity of the final product. Can you get a non muddy sound from the mains when just playing a CD?

The fact that the mud is in your system before you add the subs means that you need to start there.

The built in crossover in the B1800 is far from ideal but then it does depend on how you run it. An active crossover would be good but then how are you running the subs now? Do you run them from the full mix or do you drive them separately from an aux? When I am running systems similar in size to yours I prefer to only add certain things to the subs like maybe just the kick and bass. If you have the whole shooting match going there you will add mud and suck unnecessary power from the amp that is driving the sub (ie the amp is amplifying all the stuff above the crossover frequency and the crossover is rejecting it). The placement of the b1800s is critical and incorrect placement can lead to a hole in the coverage or cancellations or booming or mud (or all of the above!).

I would initially concentrate on cleaning up your mains then when you have done that you can work on getting the subs happening.

Baron
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Fred Garrett

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2004, 11:29:08 PM »


I agree with Baron's post about cleaning up your main cabinets first.  As was mentioned, start with a CD player and your main cabinets.  Don't worry about how much bass the main cabs put out as you will be adding the sub for that.  Most of the Carvin boards have some sort of EQ on them so use that to try and get a decent sound out of them.  Once you are generally happy with your mains, you can get an active crossover.  In addition to the already mentiond brands, you can also look for a used TDM crossover.  I have bought several of these used, and then put them in my own rigs for years running hundreds of shows without failure.  I have found them to be very reliable, and they are very simple to operate.

 Now here is how I calibrate a system:

To do exactly what I do makes an awesum amount of noise, so I am going to give you the 1/3 power version:

First get a CD you know very, very well, and set up all you gear in a "club" scenario (Mains set up like they are in a club, and you & the board set up across the room facing the mains.  

After you hook everything up, turn on all the gear, and then turn the amps all the way up, and turn all the inputs and outputs on the active crossover down to 0 (-infinity, whatever).

Next set your subwoofer crossover frequency(90-130Hz), and turn the input dial on the crossover to "0" or "Unity"

Start the CD player so that you have signal coming into the crossover.  Make sure the output of the board is between "-10" and "0" or "unity" .  In a full throttle calibration you would have the output of the board running at "0" or "+1" or "+2", but like I said this would be way, way loud, so unless you live way out on a farm, I don't recommend it.

SLOWLY turn the low frequency output knob on the crossover up until you hear the sub start to work.  If it gets too loud for your environment simply go to the board and lower the CD players level.  You want to get the Low Frequency Output knob on the crossover to "0" or "Unity".

Once you have done this, start turning the "HighFrequency Output" knob on the crossover until you feel the highs match the lows.  Again, you can control you overall volume with the channel fader on the board.  When you are done you should be able to maintain the balance of low and high frequency output wether the PA is running quiet or loud.

IF you can do a full throttle calibration (i.e. you have found a place to make noise that won't get you arrested), then let me know and I will tell you what I do in that situation.
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Mike McNany

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2004, 11:31:26 AM »

This is a MUCH shortened version of what this crap new formated forum threw away when I tried to go back a correct one lousy word!

I've used the TR1502s for about 2 years a few years back, passive and bi-amped. I own and have used a set of B1800Xs for 2 years, first with old Peavey SP2 tops (crossed at 105Hz, active), now with Yorkville U15s (crossed at 80-85Hz), with a Behringer CX2310 active crossover.

BX1800X - internal crossver - VERY BAD! Plus they are inefficient to start with. Give them 500 watts each to start with, 800 +/- a couple is good!

Berhinger CX2310 active crossover - NOW! $80 USD. Cross at 100Hz, adjust output levels on crossover to ear. Used stereo mode high and low outs, turn down summed sub freq to low as possible to avoid a low cut effect.

If Carvin TR1502s - MUCH cleaner biamped.

Each of the above requires separate power amps.

ONLY use 12ga speaker wires, keep them short as possible.

boomer



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Dave Dermont

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2004, 11:46:22 AM »

Hi Boomer,

sorry to hear about what "the crap forum" did to you.

Please be advised that, in the future, you may edit a post ANY TIME after it's posted with the handy button that says "edit" (imagine that!) that you will find at the bottom of all your posts.

This feature is pretty cool I think, I mean, for a crap forum and all.  Rolling Eyes
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Vic Turner

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2004, 04:39:26 PM »

Thanks again everyone. So those Yamaha club V 15's are the best bang for the buck? Thanks for the tip I was never satisfied with the Carvins to begin with. From what it seems I can get by with the Behrenger subs for now. Another question is with our Nady amp it is two amps in one, we power the subs and 15's with this amp. I noticed everyone powers each set of speakers seperately with it's own amp, why is this? Does it have something to do with Ohms? So if we were to upgrade the 15's we should also purchase a seperate amp for them? I am just curions why? And  what would be some good amp choices that isn't too pricy? So this is where I'm at now with what direction I need to go, an active crossover (should I also run my 15's in this manner with the crossover?) An external EQ, better 15's, and an amp for those 15's and continue to run the Behrenger subs with the Nady amp. After I get this sorted out then I can calibrate the system. Am I on the right track here trying to get the most out of my gear? I know I'm just full of questions.
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Phil Ouellette

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2004, 05:04:53 PM »

Boomer wrote on Mon, 19 April 2004 11:31

This is a MUCH shortened version of what this crap new formated forum threw away when I tried to go back a correct one lousy word!
...
boomer


Hi boomer,

I had the same happen to me on a long and carefully thought out message (at least it was well thought out for me).  When you hit the back button on your browser it takes you back to a blank entry box.  If you hit the forward button you get the standard IE blather about the page being expired and how IE can't display the page without resending forms.  Look carefully, there is link on that page to resend forms.  Click it and your message comes back.

The problem is not really anything to do with this forum it's how your version of IE is configured and this work around takes care of it. Don't jump to any other pages or you might still loose the data.

Hope that saves you some aggravation.

Phil

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That's "newbiesque" to my friends.

Mike McNany

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2004, 06:09:43 PM »

Dave,

I saw the edit feature and used it AFTER I posted. WHAT is the function of the PREVIEW button then?  I EXPECTED that it was to preview the message BEFORE posting so that you could go back and change things. Silly me. It's just an extra step before posting and you can't go back and fix things you see. Instead your effort disappears into the ether.

On top of that, this format is VERY FRUSTRATING to start with for those of us stuck with ancient dialup. I don't have the extra $50 per month laying around for DSL that our phone company demands in Pumpkinville. The ads (I know, I know, they pay the bills) get loaded fairly fast AFTER a 10 second delay and dance around mightily and flash several times through a sequence. Takes about 8 seconds morte before the actual message text shows up. THEN that makes it take FOREVER to go down through a thread, waiting for each page to load. The read messages don't show up right away marked as such and that confuses me compared to the previous setup. I could give a Rat's A#@ about being able to use emoticons. I just want to be able to get to the messages and read those of interest without noting the time wasted in my life waiting for them, it's that significant. Good thing I'm semi-retired.

The FORUM is NOT and has never been crap! Even the relatively new lounge. The changes ARE, for ME, at the moment. Am I missing something or is my access here going to have to be when I am extremely bored and have an entire afternoon to waste to access and review it?  I have learned many things here and try to give back when I can. I'd like to be able to do so in the future.

Also previously I was notified of replies. I was NOT in this case, even though THAT was selected.

boomer
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Dave Dermont

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2004, 07:06:34 PM »

Boomer,

I understand your frustration. At least we are all learning the new forum together. I think having a centralized area for all forums, as well as a common look & feel will be well worth the learning curve.

It really is all about the community.

Have you tried the flat view? If you try it and like it, you can go into your profile and make it your preference. You can even have the topic list and threads display differently if you like.

As always, thanks for participating.

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RobertOziemkowski

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Re: Getting the MUD out, looking at crossovers
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2004, 08:11:30 PM »

Motown wrote on Mon, 19 April 2004 21:39

Thanks again everyone. So those Yamaha club V 15's are the best bang for the buck? Thanks for the tip I was never satisfied with the Carvins to begin with. From what it seems I can get by with the Behrenger subs for now. Another question is with our Nady amp it is two amps in one, we power the subs and 15's with this amp. I noticed everyone powers each set of speakers seperately with it's own amp, why is this? Does it have something to do with Ohms? So if we were to upgrade the 15's we should also purchase a seperate amp for them? I am just curions why? And  what would be some good amp choices that isn't too pricy? So this is where I'm at now with what direction I need to go, an active crossover (should I also run my 15's in this manner with the crossover?) An external EQ, better 15's, and an amp for those 15's and continue to run the Behrenger subs with the Nady amp. After I get this sorted out then I can calibrate the system. Am I on the right track here trying to get the most out of my gear? I know I'm just full of questions.


If you've decided to replace youe Carvins(I would), get the plastic out NOW!!!

A friends band were using JBL TR 225s, IMO the worst box they EVER made. It took awhile, but I convinced them to try two of their Yam sm115IV wedges on top. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

The wedges have pole cups and sound like the Yam top boxes. Best bang for the buck out there, especially at the closeout prices!

You might still find the top cabs(S115IV) at GC or MF, but, Shhhhh! mf has the sm115IV{don't buy them all, I want a couple)@199+! sm112IV @169.

The great part for you is that when you move up(EAWs or...), you can put these on the floor.

As far as your amp, Sub/Top on same amp is fine(@4ohms) if it supplies enough power! But Nady??????
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