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Author Topic: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers  (Read 7809 times)

William

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Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« on: April 16, 2004, 09:04:53 am »

wsg



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers    

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A year or so ago, with the help of this board we assembled a nice-sounding, compact PA system for live jazz/blues gigs being played at low-moderate volumes in medium-sized rooms and small outdoor parks. Designed for a working band and primarily for vocals, it's portable and easy to use.


BACKGROUND

Although many of you won't agree with all of our choices, we're happy with this system. Briefly, we designed it around running 2-4 EV S-200 speakers (i.e. unpowered and more compact than current designs and good power handling at 300 wts. continuous/600peak at 8ohms), a lightweight QSC PLX 3002 (3000 wt.) amp to power them with decent headroom, the EV S-200 speaker equalizer unit to boost the bottom end of the speakers' 12" woofers, a Lexicon MPX500 for efx, a Rolls mixer (i.e. probably not the best quality, but the only single space rack-mount mixer we could find) and with sincere apologies to the members of this board, a BBE 482 to boost the overall sound. We sometimes run 4 Peavy unpowered 16 ohm Mini-Monitors (circa 1990) as well. And in case anyone needs to know, we use fairly high-end Beyer TXG 580 vocal mics.

REASON FOR THIS POST

After months of enjoying this system, one of our EV speakers blew. In weighing our options regarding whether we recone it or consider alternatives, I thought I would solicit some opinions from this board.

Again, compact size is a must. The EV's are heavy but slim in size and have decent power handling, plus they offer the ability to boost their bottom end through the EV processor. Their main drawback is some low level hissing which may actually be a function of the system itself. Any comments on this point would be appreciated as we are running heavy gauge cables with Neutrix connectors.

QUESTIONS

In exploring our options, I seem to remember JBL offering a mini speaker system in the late 80's/early 90's at around the same time that EV was selling these EV S-200's. They were somewhat smaller than the EV's and had their own signal processor unit. Does anybody remember them? And how did they compare to the EV's in terms of sound quality, power-handling etc.?

Also, e-bay research led me to the Bose website where I learned all about the 802 series speakers. According to Bose, these are superior to conventional horn and tweeter type speaker systems, especially for a compact set-up and when used in combination with Bose's 802 processor and mini subwoofer units. I still find it hard to believe that eight 4 1/2" speakers can produce as much richness of sound as a 12" woofer and tweeter system. Does anyone have any first-hand experience in using these? Also, rated at 240 watts continuous/320 peak, will we notice the difference as compared to the 300/600 rating on our EV's?

Finally, in reviewing the Bose site, they also rave about their Cylindrical Radiator system which is designed to make conventional 3-way PA systems obsolete by replacing monitors, mains and amplifier with single on stage units. Has anyone heard these in live applications? And how would they compare to the above options for compact speaker systems or to any other options that you may suggest? Also, how would the old Dawn speaker systems measure up?

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In answering our questions, please keep in mind that although many of the sound professionals reading this probably view the Eon series speakers as compact vs. the equipment they are typically working with and may be biased toward larger rigs, these are too bulky for our needs as a working band of older musicians who appreciate the control of owning and operating our own system. So kindly formulate your responses in view of the S-200's that we are currently using.

Thank you, in advance, for your assistance. And thank you for reading through this lengthly posting.

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TimmyP



Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 6:35 pm    Post subject:    

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If you have been happy with the speakers, fix the blown one and stick with them. Delete the bass EQ to (to ease the burden on the 12s) and get a sub. The JBL MP18 isn't too bad. A single Peavey QW218 would be preferable to most any pair of single 18s though. Also delete the BBE (unless it proves to be useful as a channel insert)
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Another Dave



Joined: 01 Nov 2003
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject:    

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At first I thought you meant the SX200 EV.

Is the S200 the one with the square-ish horn that was also sold in the package called The Entertainer? I believe it is.

I have used these as monitors a few times, and they are OK.

The Bose 802 is extremely inefficient and needs huge amounts of power. They are also terribly expensive. I don't feel the cost justifies the performance. I have used them extensivly in the country club circuit, and find that they are usually owned by people who love marketing hype and have lots of money. I am sure that the new cylindrical things will do well in the same market.

You can use the "revolutionary" idea of replacing both mains & monitors by simply standing in front of your EV speakers.

Repair the EV speakers.

If you have way too much money, and want to spend it on something really good, get a Nexo PS10 setup.

Later,

Another Dave
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wsg



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:48 pm    Post subject:      

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Thanks for the helpful advice. The EV's are decent speakers, especially when placed side-by-side (2+2) to utilize the "acoustic coupling" effect. And the two responses received so far seem fairly positive about these. Although there's some hiss, it's probably the system itself, unless anyone has any other information to offer on that point.

The ones I'm referring to by the way are the S-200's (circa 1990), not to be confused with the lower-end Entertainer model also being offered at that time or with the current SX-200's which EV tech support admits is essentially the same speaker in a bulkier, trapezoidal cabinet.

We'll probably just recone the speaker and avoid the Bose options. Does anyone have any info. on the mini JBL's I was referring to (circa 1990 with processor unit) though?

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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2004, 03:35:08 pm »

Personally speaking, if you want something that light weight, any have no money to spend, you might want to keep what you got.

That being said, if you had a little bit more money, I believe you would do well to check out a few new systems..

Turbosound makes there TQ- powered line of speakers, they aren't cheap, and they will be heavier than what you have. But you don't need amps, and they sound very nice.

FBT Makes there MAxX 6 which is a 15" + 2" horn box which sounds very very nice weighs only 54 lbs, and is self powered.... I believe these are somewhat less expensive than the turbo's.

as for normal systems.... Nexo makes there PS10 and 15 systems which would work for you very very well, and aren't as expensive as you may think. a ps10 speaker is like 950 something and the controllers are like 650... these are lighter speakers which sound very, very good. there ps15 costs like 1700 (I believe) with the controller being around 1000. If you couple the 10's to a sub module, or add the ps15/bass module to the ps15's you have a beautiful sound.

Again.... if you don't have the money and really like what you have, then just fix what you have. Personally I believe there may be some merit at looking whats out there now, but thats just me.

As for Bose systems, you may want to take a look at the old LAB where there systems have been discussed a lot. A thread about there "cylindrical radiating loudspeaker" is only a little ways down the page.

Karl P
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JimCreegan

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2004, 03:00:13 pm »

The SX200s are nice sounding for what they are.  They do lack bass as you noticed.  If you are talking about the JBL 10" EON speakers I think what you have is better.

If you want to Upgrade I would also recommend a sub over new mains.  Since it sounds like you are coming close to what you need with the EVs you might do OK with a single 15 sub.  You would take a lot of the load off the S200s and improve your real low frequency range to 40Hz or so.  You might want to base your decision on what to get on what is available to rent in your area.  That way you could get one for smaller gigs and rent an identical one when you need it.

The Hisss may be a result of poor gain structure.  There is much info from people who know a lot more than me in the study hall.  One way to check is, if you are not pegging the meters on your mixer already,  turn the amp inputs down and the mixer mains up and see if the noise goes down at the same music volume.  If you are running the mixer outputs at less than 0dB try lowering the amp inputs 6dB and raising the Mixer out by 6dB.

The hiss may also just be coming from one of the processors in the signal path (the BBE, EQ, BBE or the BBE)  try removing or bypassing things to see if it improves.

The Rolls is also not likely to be anywhere near as quiet as any pro level,  even the low end stuff like SC spirit Mackie etc.  This is specially true if there is any EQ on it.

Hope this helps

JimC
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William

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2004, 03:29:13 pm »

Thanks for the helpful info. The Nexo 8" speakers sound interesting as they're surprisingly about HALF the weight and size as the Nexo 10's! Do you think these would be a good choice along with the Nexo subwoofer and processor and our existing 3000 watt QSC power amp? Would two of these mains w/their one subwoofer have a better quality sound than running 4 of the EV's?

Also, does anybody remember the unpowered JBL's offered in the late 80's/early 90's at around the same time that EV was selling the S-200's? As I recall, they were somewhat smaller than the EV's and featured their own processor unit. What were they called, and how was their power rating?
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2004, 05:06:13 pm »

The nexo 8" is a very nice little box. When you add the sub I would expect the sound quality would far outperform your EV's... As for your amp, run the PLX3002 one side per PS8 and bridge a PLX1602 for the sub.

Now, the only thing I would be concerned about is how much you would like to do with this box. How big of venues do you want to do with this rig? You may be able to use 2 boxes per side by flipping the horns to even out the dispersion. This works reasonably well on the PS15 boxes but you may want to contact Nexo USA to make sure...

You may want to find the nearest dealer of the nexo's, they very well may have the ps8's...... I know you will be surprised by there quality.

Karl P
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William

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2004, 10:31:29 am »

Thanks for the reply. Would it be possible to run two Nexo's on one side and the Nexo subwoofer on the other side to avoid the need to run two different power amps?
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2004, 02:36:32 pm »

Yes it would be possible to run them that way. You would have to see if you have enough power for the sub to really hit well, but it would definitly work, and work pretty well at that.

Karl P
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William

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2004, 07:40:57 am »

Thanks. Not to keep bothering you, but given that the QSC 3002 power amp. is rated at 3000 wts., would that enable me to provide maximum power to all three speakers (2+1)?
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2004, 10:15:12 pm »

Well that amp is only 3000 watts in very few circumstances (4 ohms bridged). The only way you can use one amp to run both of those is to run your system mono and pump one side into the sub, and one side into the tops.

The tops will run the amp at 4 ohms putting out 450 watts into each cabinet, and the subwoofer will run at 8 ohms, giving it 550 watts.

Again I say you would be a little better off with a plx 1602 in the rack for the subs, that will allow you to run your mains in stereo (if you do that) or mono, but in any case give you 550 watts per top, and if you bridge the 1602 will give you 1100w, which would be healthy power all around.

But yeah, thats your two choices. You can always start with one and go to the other.

Karl P
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Simon Tucker

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2004, 07:55:04 am »

Hi Karl,

Just to polish off your already excellent replies with respect to this post, the subs with the PS8 or even PS10 systems are not 8 ohms.

In the PS8 system, the sub is 6 ohms, and with the PS10 system, the sub is 4 ohms.

The main reason I point this out is that if the original poster ever wants to double up on subs, using a PLX1602 in bridged mode would no longer be an option for him.

Hope this helps,

Simon T
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2004, 11:47:30 am »

Ohhhh yes, thank you Simon. I for some reason got it confused with another miniature sub I had recently seen that operated at 8.
You are also right about not doubling up the subs, but if he needed more subs you could just keep adding amps, in some ways its cheaper than buying something like a 3402, but the power use will be a bit a bit more for the dual route.... and the weight a bit more for two amps.... choices choices <g>.

Thanks for the correction,

Karl P
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Simon Tucker

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2004, 12:24:47 pm »

Hi Karl,

No probs Smile

Simon (not Steve)
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Karl P(eterson)

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2004, 12:42:06 pm »

When did I say steve? Simon is all i see........... <g>

Karl "He should just throw it all out and use a TD-1 array with about 8 BDeap subs..... yeah... that aughta do it" P
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Simon Tucker

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Re: Nostalgia Trip: Help Needed on Small PA Speakers
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2004, 12:52:10 pm »

Ahh,

The new found joys of editing LAB posts.

Smile
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