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Author Topic: difference in electrical systems US/Europe/Australia  (Read 10536 times)

Dave Stevens

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Re: difference in electrical systems US/Europe/Australia
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2004, 09:33:37 PM »

Mr.X wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 09:29



The 2 exceptions I've seen are Norway, where they have no neutral, and Asia, where they have no ground/earth.



I've been to Norway a few times and haven't noticed they have no neutral. We used the same schuko we use on most of the rest of the continent.  We're usually on a transformer we bring from the UK or Germany.

Asia is a pretty big place and having done at least a half dozen countries over there I wouldn't say flat out they don't use earth.  My first time in Spain in the early '80s they didn't bother to use an earth, though that doesn't mean they don't use an earth all over.  We're tentitively scheduled to go to Korea next month so I'll make it a point to check it out.  We were just in Mexico last year and there were a couple of places where they weren't going to earth the genset, but we made them anyway.  Ground or earth is for  life safety reason, so any fault current goes to earth and not through the bag of water we call the human  body.

I'm due to spend about four months overseas this year.  I'll keep my eyes open and document what I see.

Dave
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Peter Morris

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Re: no confusion here
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2004, 10:31:27 PM »

Thanks Dave, I was not sure where each was used.

What do you see in clubs, arenas etc , the 2 hot domestic and the industrial 3 phase ?

The 4 wire system I referred to did not include the earth wire as part of the distribution system.  The earth is picked up at each installation / switch board where an earth stake is required, at which point it becomes 5 as you mentioned. Is this how you do it in the US?

Peter
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Lee Patzius

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Re: Please Clarify, I'm confused here
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2004, 08:59:23 AM »

Peter wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 19:49

...I believe there are a couple of unusual configurations that are used.

...there is also a  4-Wire Delta System, which has a bastard leg and some other configuration where the phases are apposed at 180 degrees ( I think it uses a Scott T transformer or something)

Perhaps some in the US can enlighten US some details?????

Peter



In the USA, the 240 volt delta system you are referring to with a bastard leg on phase B, has a grounded center tap connected between phases A and C, and it provides the US standard 120/240 volts single phase service. (Caution: higher voltage delta systems exist, ie. 240/480 volts.)

OTOH, the voltage across the bastard leg (aka "wild leg") to center tap is 208 volts, but is illegal to use. The bastard leg is color coded "orange" by code. But "red" has been used by utility companies.

There is another popular, but seriously "tricky", type of delta system called the "corner grounded" or (CG) delta. This system has a grounded B phase. The phase to phase voltages are equal to the phase to ground voltages.

What's really scary is, if you only test the grounded B phase to ground, you'll get zero volts, thinking that the power is dead. This setup is why you must test all phases line to line, and line to ground. One of my electrician friend's got the skin blown off his hands from the resultant arc flash and molten copper. He lived, but swore that the power was dead.

Anyway, in the US, the most common customer nominal voltages are:

120/240 volts single phase.
120/208 volts three phase wye.
277/480 volts three phase wye.
240 volts three phase delta.
240 volts three phase delta - corner grounded phase.
120/208/240 three phase bastard delta.
480 volt three phase delta.
480 volt three phase delta - corner grounded phase.

Plus many more higher voltage configurations, especially on the primary sides! Watch out for those tiny "little" wires! They are the ones that carry the most deadliest of voltages.

Lee Patzius

 




 




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Andrew Broughton

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Re: difference in electrical systems US/Europe/Australia
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2004, 12:48:49 PM »

Quote:

I've been to Norway a few times and haven't noticed they have no neutral. We used the same schuko we use on most of the rest of the continent. We're usually on a transformer we bring from the UK or Germany.

Interesting. The venue we were at used a completely different type of C-Form from the rest of Europe, (a 4-wire 3-phase connector, which they called I think 9-o'clock, referring to the position of the tab. "Normal" C-Forms are 6-o'clock... I may have that backwards...)
They claimed that "All of Norway is like this" but perhaps only in older venues.

Quote:

Asia is a pretty big place and having done at least a half dozen countries over there I wouldn't say flat out they don't use earth.
Well, after doing MANY venues in Asia, certainly China and Taiwan don't have grounds in most venues. I expect there are exceptions, of course!

Here's a Brand New distro panel in a venue in Taiwan. Notice anything? Winkindex.php/fa/14//
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Dave Stevens

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Re: no confusion here
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2004, 03:11:47 PM »

Peter wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 19:31



What do you see in clubs, arenas etc , the 2 hot domestic and the industrial 3 phase ?



Most if not all modern purpose built venues or sport facilities have several services, mostly three phase but some single phase as well.  Theaters are mostly the same, though sometimes don't have teh capacity that an arena would.  This would be multiple panels that vary in capacity from 100 to 400 amps.  

Smaller clubs, particularly older clubs may only have single phase and many times unless there's been a modification or addition, it's  not set up to easily tap power.  Many if not most of the larger clubs have the ability to tap power, but smaller clubs aren't used to it and you have to jump through hoops to get a set of tails tied in.

Dave
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Bob Lee (QSC)

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Re: difference in electrical systems US/Europe/Australia
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2004, 05:17:13 PM »

[quote title=Mr.X wrote on Sat, 17 April 2004 09:48]
Quote:

Well, after doing MANY venues in Asia, certainly China and Taiwan don't have grounds in most venues. I expect there are exceptions, of course!


That is true; grounding or earthing is uncommon in Taiwan and China; I don't know why. But electrical in older buildings and installs are unlikely to have grounds.
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Bob Lee
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ThomasA(lbenberger)

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Thanks!
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2004, 10:02:39 PM »

Thanks to everybody and especially to Peter for clarifying this!

Cheers, Thomas
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Thomas Albenberger

Glenn Hastings

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Re: Thanks!
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2004, 09:27:12 AM »

Please check this web page, for good information on various electrical systems.

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/electrical_wir ing.html

Cheers
GH
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kaindub

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Re: difference in electrical systems US/Europe/Australia
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2004, 09:39:38 AM »

I am the original poster.
I think some one else picked up on what i meant. In Australian and European systems the nuetral is always at earth potential.
In the us the nuetral can be above eart potential by 110V.
Different systems; different principles.

As for GFI in Australia.
GFI or some form of Earth leakage disconnection is mandatory.
However, this has not been the case always.
therefore you will find many instalations without any GFI.
If yu're using a non fixed distro, then it will be mandatory irrespective of whether the fixed installation has GFI.
There are also a number of different ways to install a GFI from the cheap, which is prone to nuisance tripping to a separate GFI for each circuit, which is more reliable.
generally standards are pretty high in Austalia and usually enforced at time of installation.
Power continuity should not be a problem.
Hope this helps.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: difference in electrical systems US/Europe/Australia
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2004, 09:39:38 AM »


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