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[ThomasA(lbenberger)]

Hi everybody!

I've moved this posting from the old LAB to this place to respond:

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Posted by Dennis O'Shea on April 14, 2004 at 18:45:28:

hi,
Does anyone know how european 240 volt electrics are configured. Is the hot (brown) 240v referenced to neutral (blue) and a ground (yellow/green)?
Thanks,
Dennis

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Follow Ups:

Posted by Robert Bud on April 15, 2004 at 01:25:53:

In Reply to: european 240v 3 wire? posted by Dennis O'Shea on April 14, 2004 at 18:45:28:

I n case someof the posters missed the point.
In a European system (as opposed to the electrical system used in the USA) the earth is the earth.
Somewhere along the line the Nuetral (Blue) wire is tied to the earth. It depends on the particular sustem in use, but if you put a voltmeter between the green/yellow and the blue wires, there should be very littkle if any otential difference. if there is look for a problem before proceeding.
Note that it is not lawful to use the green/yellow as the return wire, it is there for safety purposes.
Now if you measure between the brown (active) and the blue (nuetral) wire you will get 240V.
You will measure the same voltage between the nuetral wire and any of the other active wires if it is a multi phases system.
Howwever the active wires are not all at the same potential. they are phase displaces by 120 degress. So if you measure from one active to another active (both on different phases) you will measure 415volts!.
It's a lot different to what you have in the US so be careful.

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Hi Bud!

I am coming from Austria and I've been lurking around on the LAB for years now. All I know about the US electrical system is coming from this source. But I always assumed that earth = earth, no matter if it was in the US or in Europe.

Now you wrote that

'In a European system (as opposed to the electrical system used in the USA) the earth is the earth.'

Could you please explain the difference?

Since you have an Australian e-mail address and I'm currently living down under, could you also be so kind to tell me the difference to the Australian electrical system?

In a few weeks time I'll probably start touring with a band in NSW/Queensland, what are the regulations for venues here: Is the use of a GFI required by law? Is it common to find venues without one?

Thanks very much for the clarification!

Thomas

[Dave Stevens]

Good job on the post transfer Thomas.

Regarding what the original poster stated, earth is earth, ground is ground no matter were one is on the planet.  Someone may have wired a service incorrectly that didn't follow a color code, but with the exception of the increased voltage, power distribution is basically the same throughout the world.  At least in the 50 or so countries I've been to.  

It appears that the original poster is talking about a service with  two hot legs, much like a 120/240 vac four wire.  The potential between those two legs is roughly double that of a single leg to a neutral. (let's forget phasor angles for a minute...)  My guess would be that the original poster has metered a service where the color coding is not accurate and there is an instance of two "hot" legs.

Dave

[ThomasA(lbenberger)]

Thanks for the quick response Dave!

Now I hope that one of our Australian collegues can jump in with a clarification: Is the use of a GFI required in NSW/Queensland?

I'm not touring with racks and stacks, just the band's backline and wanted to know what to expect from the electrical installations here.

TIA, Thomas

[Peter Morris]

What happens in OZ is similar to most of the world; the odd one is the US.

Power is distributed as three phase with 120 degrees between each leg or phase.  It is wired in a star configuration with the centre point being neutral.  Neutral is connected to earth at the generator and at other major distribution points, substations and switchboards etc. throughout the system. Hence it is call an MEN (multiple earth neutral) system.

The voltage between phases is root 3 times the voltage between a phase and earth, eg. 415 volt between each phase -- 240 volts between any phase and earth.  (as Robert described)

It is simple, reliable and uniform thought out the country

At a venue power will be supplied at 415 volts 3 phase. 32 amp 5 pin sockets are the most common, and 240-volt single-phase sockets 10 or 15 amp sockets are also the most common.

The colours are green or green with yellow for earth. For single phase, blue is neutral and brown is active.

In three-phase configurations it should be the same but often confusion can arise with various colour coding in different cables resulting in neutral and active are transposed … so … always check, it does not happen very often but it does happen and you will get 415 volts out of a 240 volt power point!

A GFI  or RCD (Residual Current Device) as we call it is required by all  States in Australia to be used on “portable equipment”. Depending on the age of the venue an RCD may fitted to the switchboard and no additional protection will be required.  Each state has slightly different legislation but essentially it’s the same over the entire country.

You may also have to safety “test and tag” your equipment periodically to ensure its electrical safety.  This also required by most states.

Peter  

BTW I think its now 230 volts not 240, although you will still get 240 out of most outlets.

[eric]

Hi

Just to reiterate, earth is earth is earth...

Although in most instances neutral is tied to earth at switchboards etc, in the equipment I was involved in designing it was a statutory requirement that neutral be treated the same way as the live wire. That means it had to be switched and fused. AFAIK this was for several reasons, in the EU plugs can be rotated, in the states an application involved running the gear "2 phase" ie neut and live each went on one phase of a 120V 3 phase system to give 208V.

From memory there are a few different voltage systems, EU is 220V 50hz (380V ph - ph), Aussie and NZ are either 230 or 240V 50hz (415Vph-ph), it was 240 but it supposedly changed to 230 but what comes out of the plugs ranges from about 229-245 depending on the time of the day!
America is either 120 or 240V 60hz. Now there are many other industrial voltage standards but they don't often get used for anything but big factories...

I'm pretty sure RCD's are required in all portable equipment in NZ and since NZ tends to follow Australia with its regs i would assume thats a requirement there. We also need to have all equipment tested every 6 months for electrical safety.

Eric

[David Morison]

eric wrote on Thu, 15 April 2004 21:47

Hi From memory there are a few different voltage systems, EU is 220V 50hz (380V ph - ph),

Hi Eric,
Just to clarify EU voltages....
It's nominally 230V in the EU countries, but with a wide enough tolerance to allow countries previously operating on 220V or 240V to continue without immediate changes to their infrastructure. Harmonisation will presumably come in time, but with 10 new coutries about to join the EU, probably not for a while. In the mean time, gear manufacturers basically have to allow for the extra variation in likely supply voltages.
Cheers,
David.

[Joel]

 How exactly (other than the obvious differences in voltage, frequency and color coding) does this differ from the American system?  It seems to be identical.  Three phase hots differ in phase by 120 degrees, all reference to neutral, voltage between hots is equal to voltage times the square root of 3, ground is used only for safety, and ground and neutral are tied at the service entrance.  Am I missing something here?  

In case someof the posters missed the point.
In a European system (as opposed to the electrical system used in the USA) the earth is the earth.
Somewhere along the line the Nuetral (Blue) wire is tied to the earth. It depends on the particular sustem in use, but if you put a voltmeter between the green/yellow and the blue wires, there should be very littkle if any otential difference. if there is look for a problem before proceeding.
Note that it is not lawful to use the green/yellow as the return wire, it is there for safety purposes.
Now if you measure between the brown (active) and the blue (nuetral) wire you will get 240V.
You will measure the same voltage between the nuetral wire and any of the other active wires if it is a multi phases system.
Howwever the active wires are not all at the same potential. they are phase displaces by 120 degress. So if you measure from one active to another active (both on different phases) you will measure 415volts!.
It's a lot different to what you have in the US so be careful.

[Andrew Broughton]

Quote:

but with the exception of the increased voltage, power distribution is basically the same throughout the world. At least in the 50 or so countries I've been to.

The 2 exceptions I've seen are Norway, where they have no neutral, and Asia, where they have no ground/earth.

I only did one show in Norway, so someone will have to let me know if that's really the norm (as the people in Norway claim) or if that place was the exception. We had to have a huge transformer brought in to give a neutral feed for lighting. Neutral wasn't needed for audio as we have a single-phase distro. It was like running on balanced power...

[Peter Morris]

I’m not sure how all the power is distributed throughout the US, but I believe there are a couple of unusual configurations that are used.

The 4-Wire Three-Phase Wye System (120/208 3 phase at 120 degrees) is what I am familiar with except  Oz has 240/415 volt version, there is also a  4-Wire Delta System, which has a bastard leg and some other configuration where the phases are apposed at 180 degrees ( I think it uses a Scott T transformer or something)

Perhaps some in the US can enlighten US some details?????

Peter

[Dave Stevens]

Peter wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 17:49

The 4-Wire Three-Phase Wye System (120/208 3 phase at 120 degrees) is what I am familiar with except  Oz has 240/415 volt version, there is also a  4-Wire Delta System, which has a bastard leg and some other configuration where the phases are apposed at 180 degrees ( I think it uses a Scott T transformer or something)

The three phase is a five wire and it is a wye.  Three hots, neutral and earth.  Some industrial only configurations,primarily for motors and other such apps are four wire three phase, three hots and earth.  That's how three phase hoists we use work.  No neutral.

A delta service is another matter and I don't see many of them these days.  I'm not even sure they install them any more.  That would be an industrial application.

Residential power in the US is typically 120/240 vac single phase, four wire.  Two hots of 120 vac nominal, neutral and earth.  This is the configuration where the phases are 180 degrees opposite.

Dave

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