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Quality of Components?
Jacob Robinson:
I am trying to persuade our church to do a PA overhaul so I have went out and gotten several quotes and the last one I got was almost 40% less than the others. My question is what your opinion of the components that were chosen and the quality of the system as it might work together as a whole. I know without more details about the acoustics of the church you cannot give too much feedback, but my question is more about the quality of products chosen.
Thank your for your opinions, (I hope this is allowed)
our church is approx.
30' x 75'
8' walls on sides, with gabled ceiling that are 14' in center
We have a full worship band and play a very wide variety of music
Here are the proposed components.
(1) Allen & Heath ZED-436 http://www.allen-heath.com/zed/zed436
(2) DAS Artec 28 (house speakers). . . . .http://www.dasaudio.com/index.asp?pagina=productos&subpagina=1&galeria=176&producto=476&numPagina=2&lang=en
(2) Bag End D10E-I (subs) http://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/2798-D10E-I%20Bag%20End%20specs.pdf
(2) FBT Verve 8M (stage monitors) http://www.fbtusa.net/FBTVerve8mmonitortc.html
(4) FBT Jolly 5RA (Monitors for instruments and individuals) http://www.fbtusa.net/jy5ra.html
(1) Bag End Infra Processor http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/inframxb.pdf
(1) Driverack PA+ http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/
(3) Crown XTI-1000 amps http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XTi1000/?gclid=COW3ufGq_qYCFcIKKgodIy-4Zg
(1) Furman PSPROII power manager http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=PS-PRO_II
John Fiorello:
Hi Jacob!
Can you give us something to compare this list to, like what was suggested by other designers?
Also, did you specify what type of equipment was used or did each designer choose equipment based on their measurements of the space?
Thanks!
JF
Tom Young:
--- Quote from: Jacob Robinson on February 10, 2011, 02:38:42 PM ---I am trying to persuade our church to do a PA overhaul so I have went out and gotten several quotes and the last one I got was almost 40% less than the others. My question is what your opinion of the components that were chosen and the quality of the system as it might work together as a whole. I know without more details about the acoustics of the church you cannot give too much feedback, but my question is more about the quality of products chosen.
--- End quote ---
I'm curious about the services offered by the competing contractors.
Do any of them base their designs on room modeling and/or did any of them conduct a site visit and attend a service or two ?
Do they provide measurement and optimization as part of their installation and commissioning ?
How about sound checks, training and follow up hand-holding ?
Jacob Robinson:
Here are the other two competing quotes, it seems that they are all offering very different products with estimates from $11,000 to 23,000
Phase I
OPTION 1
$5189.93 – 10% church discount = $4670.94
MACKIE ONYX 32.4
FURMAN PS-8R II
ALTO MAXIDRIVE 3.4
BELDEN MIC CABLE
MIDDLE ATLANTIC WALL PLATE / RACK
NEUTRIK CONNECTORS
LABOR
OPTION 2
$5809.94 – 10% church discount = $5228.95
ALLEN & HEATH GL2400 32
FURMAN PS-PRO II
DRIVERACK 260
BELDEN MIC CABLE
MIDDLE ATLANTIC WALL PLATE
NEUTRIK CONNECTORS
LABOR
Phase II
OPTION 1
$3072.00 – 10% church discount = $2764.80
Personal Monitoring System
Hear Technologies System with 4 Mixers
2 Yorkville YX15P floor Wedges for Singers
Stands for Mixers
Cat 5 Cabling
Connectors
6 25’ Mic Cables
4 15’ Mic Cables
2 10’ Mic Cables
4 20’ Inst Cables
2 10’ Inst Cables
Labor
OPTION 2
$4894.00 – 10% church discount = $4404.60
Personal Monitoring System
Aviom System with 4 Mixers
2 Yorkville YX15P floor Wedges for Singers
Stands for Mixers
Cat 5 Cabling
Connectors
6 20’ Mic Cables
4 15’ Mic Cables
2 10’ Mic Cables
4 20’ Inst Cables
2 10’ Inst Cables
Labor
If only floor wedges are to be used a minimum of 4 YX15P’s are needed along with an ART
Headphone Amp $1700.00 – 10% church discount = $1530.00
I would also recommend the floor boxes be installed to reduce breakage of cat lines across
the platform if personal listening system is used see phase V pricing
Phase III
OPTION 1
$2474.98 – 10% church discount = $2227.49
AUDIX D6 KICK MIC
KICK MIC STAND
WALL TREATMENT BEHIND DRUMS
2 AT 3000 HANDHELD MICS
1 GALAXY HEADSET FOR PASTOR(TO BE USED WITH EXISTING BODY PACK)
1 HEADSET MIC FOR KEYS VOCAL
4 HOSA OR EQUIVALENT DI’S
LABOR
OPTION 2
$3003.99 – 10% church discount = $2703.60
AUDIX DP7 MIC KIT
ALL OTHER EQUIPMENT THE SAME
LABOR
Phase IV
OPTION 1
$4778.00 – 10% church discount = $4300.20
2 YORKVILLE NX750P SPEAKERS (FLOWN)
2 YORKVILLE NX720S SUBS (SET ON PLATFORM)
FLYWARE
RELAYS
CONNECTORS
LABOR
OPTION 2
$5558.00 – 10% church discount = 5002.20
2 QSC K SERIES TECHNOLOGY SPEAKERS
2 QSC K SERIES TECHNOLOGY SUBS
FLYWARE
RELAYS
CONNECTORS
LABOR
Phase V
OPTION 1
$3683.90 – 10% church discount = $3315.51
8 Mystery Floor Boxes
2 Speakers for Perimeter w Volume Controls
70v Amp
Labor
OPTION 2
$3953.90 – 10% church discount = $3558.51
8 Mystery Floor Boxes with Power
3 Speakers for Perimeter w Volume Controls
70v Amp
Labor
OPTION 1: $1869.87 OPTION 2: $2321.97
Brad Weber:
Tom beat me to it, but how they came up with the equipment listed and what they plan to offer beyond the equipment (testing and adjustments, training, documentation, system warranty, etc.) is part of the value represented by a bid.
The other aspect I often encounter is what the bidders were provided as input or direction. It's interesting to talk to the bidders on a project and ask their impression of what is wanted, you can find that sometimes you'd think they're talking about totally different projects. What happens is that the different bidders, depending on who they talk to and when, can get significantly different impressions of what is desired. To get more of an 'apples-to-apples' comparison, it usually helps to do what you can to make sure that all bidders are working from the same information. It also helps anyone reviewing the bids to have that same information.
That seems to potentially be a factor here. I get the impression the list you noted with two options for each phase is actually from one bidder and I'm not sure what the phases represent since that does not seem to be reflected in the other bids. However, I'm seeing is things like one bid with apprarently no wireless mics, one bid with two wireless mics and two lower cost headset mics and one bid with eight wireless mics including two Countryman E6s. Some bids with speakers and amps and some with powered speakers, the latter of which seems to include no speaker processing and which would require power that you may have to provide at additional cost. A CD recorder/player in one bid that does not appear in the others. One bidder that addresse stage boxes when the others do not appear to. And so on. There seem to be a number of fairly significant differences but which is most 'right' or most responsive is impossible to assess without knowing the basis of the bids and what you want.
I've had several churches hire me to help them review the bids they received when situations like this arose. I had one church where the bids included a simple equipment list and total price from one bidder and a complete and very thorough bid package from another with information on the proposed process, work schedule, payments schedule, qualifications, warranty, system concept and even predicted system performance. The difference in price was not that great but as in probably the majority of these situations it turned out that what was really being asked was not which bid was the best value but rather could the low bid be absolutely ruled out or not. Which are you really asking?
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