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Author Topic: Dual console vs monitor console  (Read 5163 times)

Nathanael

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Dual console vs monitor console
« on: June 15, 2004, 01:59:41 am »

We are currently looking at upgrading our church sound system:
* New FOH console
* Upgrade to IEM (Shure PSM-200)

The main point of discussion is concerning the following 3 options to create the monitor mix:
* Dual console such as Midas Legend 3000 to create the wedge mixes as well as 6 IEM mixes
* Monitor console on platform, but limited to rack mounted 16 channel console such as Crest CRM which would require some sub mixes such as vocals to come from FOH console
* Personal mixers for musicians such as Avoim with some sub mixes created on FOH console.

I would appreciate some feedback of people that went through a similar discussion and how they made their decisions.

Secondly, how much control do you want to give the musicians and what are the pros and cons.

Your input?
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Mike Sveda

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2004, 08:07:17 am »

We are looking at similar situation as well.

We have a Midas Verona 560 FOH console coming and will use it to do our normal 5 wedge mixes and 1 IEM mix from FOH for now.

We are looking at the Aviom system that would be run off our stage splitter using an A&H MixWiz for mic preamps and eq before hitting the aviom A/D converter.

We are looking at keeping wedges for main vocal team and choir and  putting band on headphones/earbuds.  Eventually we would look at something like a set of 10 Shure PSM200's for vocals.

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Henry Denman

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2004, 07:24:13 pm »

Currently my church is using the Aviom system and the worship team and all of my FOH guys love it.  We use direct outs for most sends but we do sub mix drums and percussion on a couple of auxes all from our FOH board and send it to the stage through our Aviom AN-16.

The nicest things about Aviom, I have NO stage volume from monitors because everyone is using IEM's or cans and my FOH guys can concentrate on mixing FOH and never have to worry about monitors.

There is an 8 channel system similar to the Aviom that I saw the other day made by a co. called Hear Technologies.  Never used it but I saw it in a mag.

Good Luck and God Bless,

Henry
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Tom Young

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 07:47:37 am »

This decision must include consideration for operating the varied options.  

With an onstage monitor mixer you have the opportunity to tweak (EQ, mostly) the inputs and more effectively than you can from a FOH mixer feeding aux mixes OR a personal mixing system that has no such controls.

But this can be problematic when its the musos or an unskilled operator at the mixer who are making these adjustments.

Personal mixing systems work surprisingly well when the musos are reasonably well behaved.  If mixing for stage monitor wedges there is more of a  demand for folks to employ caution.....obviously.

If I was doing this i would choose the Crest XRM *with* personal mixers.

The Hear system is considered to be not as good as the Aviom.
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Tom Young, Church Sound section moderator
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Nathanael

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 10:54:25 am »

Tom,

Thanks for your feedback.

A dual console such as the Midas Legend 3000 console has separate EQ controls for the monitor mixes, as well as a separate fader bank and 10 monitor VCA's.

We are not planning to mix any wedges from the monitor console at this point to avoid feedback and/or excessive bleeding from the platform into the congregation and keep the control from FOH.

The main discussion is where to operate the IEM mix and who should operate it.

A few questions about your Crest XRM with for an example an Avoim system:
* Why would you do this setup?
* What would the value of having the Crest XRM link?
* What channels would you use to fill up the 16 channels and how would you get the other 20-30 channels from the FOH console?

Nathanael

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Mike Sveda

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 11:51:19 am »

The way I am looking at hooking up the Aviom system is:

We have a 32 channel stage snake with a monitor split.

I would take 16 channels from the split to an A&H MixWiz16.2 and use the direct outs (configured post-eq, pre-fader) to feed the Aviom converter.

1:  foh aux send (for tracks and ambience mic)
2-9: vocal mics
10:  bass
11:  keys
12:  piano
13:  guitar
14:  kick
15:  snare
16:  oh
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Stuie

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2004, 10:49:03 pm »

Hi Guys

I would look at the long term as well. Is the crest desk going to cut it if you have to get more musicians or foldback. I would opt for the seperate FOH and foldback desk as the work load of chasing a foldback mid service is a pain.

I would opt for the nice midas desk and something like a Yamaha in the Foldback M 3000 or M 2500. This way you can change foldback mid serive or work between the FOH and foldback much quicker. Also if you are cutting things out in the front of house so they fit it will sound funny in the foldback.

Also if you get the IEM's i would suggest some hall mics so who ever has them on can actually hear the church. You should try the iems on for yourselves and see how stange it sounds not hearing church join in to the worship.

Cheers
Stuie

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Jamie G

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2004, 03:01:31 pm »

Ok, I know that I am a little late, replying in Aug to a message from June, but, working with church's for so many years I realize the budget doesn't usually work that fast. So, anyway...

This is my first post here and I got here from doing searches on the Midas Legend 3000. I am involved in the purchase of 2 of these things. One for the city of Glendale, AZ. and one for my church.

I am a freelance audio engineer. I mainly get hired to mix FOH, monitors, or mix for tv. But, I do do a lot of system design and install.
Right now at church we use the Aviom system with our Mackie SR40.8. We are all IEM. I have a Aura Bass shaker bolted to my drum throne and one under the bass player riser. We have NO bass or GTR amps on stage.
I don't mix at church since I'm the drummer for all 3 Sun morn services so I can say what works for the player's also.

First off, I really don't see the need of a monitor mixer if you are using Aviom. The system if easy for everyone to use. It didn't long to teach the system to everyone. The added expense of a transformed monitor split and mixer really isn't needed and can be spent on other things. Also, you will also need an extra guy to run the monitors during service. As for as patching...
I use the inserts, not the direct outs. Most mixers have post fade direct outs. This is a bad thing for monitors. The insert send is post mic pre only. Perfect for Aviom.
I think our input list goes like this(follows standard of the industry input list)..
1 Kick
2 Snare
3 Drum OH
4 Drum OH
5 Perc
6 Bass
7 ElecGtr
8 AcuGtr
9 Keys1
10 Keys2
11 Horns1
12 Horns2
13 Violin
14 Worship Leader
15 Aux send from mixer (BkUp vox usually)
16 Aux send from mixer (click for worship videos)
The backup vox's are wireless straight for Aux sends. No Aviom.
Worship leader gets an Aviom mixer. I made an insert cable to go from the Aviom mixer headphone out to his PMS700 transmitter's 2 inputs. He loves it.
Down the road we may add another separate Aviom system for the backup vox's to use. This is cheaper than a monitor mixer and all the things you need to go along with it.
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Jamie Gillespie
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Phoenix, AZ

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Re: Dual console vs monitor console
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2004, 03:01:31 pm »


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