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[Lee Buckalew]

Hi Lee,
Bennett already said "If you can fit two of them in the same space", so I think that's taken for granted in this discussion.
Cheers,
David.

That's where clarity in what's being discussed is important.  Which is what I was trying to point out.  Unsuccessfully, I might add since a tongue in cheek sort of answer just doesn't work well in print form, at least for me.
Bennett's response does not say, "if you operate two cabinets, in the same space where you used to operate one and they are acoustically coupled...".  I took his comment to mean fit in the same space as in truck or van packing space since, based on the pictures, the physical size in the venue in question does not seem to be an issue.

I was trying to point out, since many visit these pages who don't know this info, that merely doubling the driver area does not add 3dB/SPL.  In order to achieve this you must have the drivers acoustically coupled.  You can't move from having one double 18" sub centered in front of the stage for instance and add a second sub but split them left and right and expect to achieve a 6dB/SPL increase.

Lee

[Bob Leonard]

That's where clarity in what's being discussed is important.  Which is what I was trying to point out.  Unsuccessfully, I might add since a tongue in cheek sort of answer just doesn't work well in print form, at least for me.
Bennett's response does not say, "if you operate two cabinets, in the same space where you used to operate one and they are acoustically coupled...".  I took his comment to mean fit in the same space as in truck or van packing space since, based on the pictures, the physical size in the venue in question does not seem to be an issue.

I was trying to point out, since many visit these pages who don't know this info, that merely doubling the driver area does not add 3dB/SPL.  In order to achieve this you must have the drivers acoustically coupled.  You can't move from having one double 18" sub centered in front of the stage for instance and add a second sub but split them left and right and expect to achieve a 6dB/SPL increase.

Lee

It's all bullshit anyway because every statement above is based on theory, speculation, perfect conditions and personal preference.
 
The Yorkville horn loaded sub may in fact be louder than other subs, but the real question is at what frequency, for how long and under what conditions. Bennett is correct, but Lee is also and it makes no sense to get into a pissing contest, again, based on theory. We would be much better off stating the gain values as a "rule of thumb" much like the JBL rule of thumb I have used for over 40 years that states you should power your speakers using an amplifier capable of producing twice the long term handling power of the cabinet (often incorrectly expressed as the RMS rating by us old timers).
 
Stating the Yorkville cabinet is "loudest" is subjective at best without testing in a controlled environment. Everything else is, as I said above, just bullshit until proven otherwise.

[Lee Buckalew]

It's all bullshit anyway because every statement above is based on theory, speculation, perfect conditions and personal preference.
 
The Yorkville horn loaded sub may in fact be louder than other subs, but the real question is at what frequency, for how long and under what conditions. Bennett is correct, but Lee is also and it makes no sense to get into a pissing contest, again, based on theory. We would be much better off stating the gain values as a "rule of thumb" much like the JBL rule of thumb I have used for over 40 years that states you should power your speakers using an amplifier capable of producing twice the long term handling power of the cabinet (often incorrectly expressed as the RMS rating by us old timers).
 
Stating the Yorkville cabinet is "loudest" is subjective at best without testing in a controlled environment. Everything else is, as I said above, just bullshit until proven otherwise.

Bob,
I was not trying to be "in a pissing contest" but was just pointing out that we often use oversimplified statements believing that our audience has the knowledge to fill in the blanks that we left.
Comments such as, when we double the cones we get a 3dB gain is not accurate.  Someone could infer that having two identical subs in the same room could expect this result but it is simply not true.
Same goes for things such as THE inverse square law.  There are actually a few inverse square laws and all are based upon theory that can not be recreated in the real world so, they are truly a general rule of thumb.

I apologize for my comments being taken as fighting.

Back to the OP.  why is louder better?  How about we define quality along with level rather than just level defining quality.

Lee

[Stavross (Sam Buck)]

I fucking guarantee it.™

You been moonlighting at Men's Warehouse?

[Bob Kenton]

Loudest perhaps, best sounding....probably not.

[Bennett Prescott]

This is only true if the cones are located adjacent to each other in a manner that allows them to acoustically couple.  So I will concede that, if the cabinets are coupled then two powered cabinets located side by side so that they are truly coupled will create an increase in efficiency that then creates a 3dB increase.  Then having both cones driven to the same acoustical sound pressure level also adds 3dB, resulting in a 6dB total gain.

As long as we're picking nits, they don't even need to be co-located, and it's not quite 6dB since air is not a perfectly elastic medium (and because of math). The superposition effect operates at a distance, so a listener on axis will still experience the 6dB gain from having double the subs.

[Douglas R. Allen]

Based on what? At what frequency?

I have little experience with any of the mentioned subs, but the L800P is a big horn loaded box. The latest offerings seem to aim towards smaller. If you can fit two of them in the same space, that may mean a lot to many people, and there's 6dB more output there. Is there also more LF extension? Flatter frequency response up high? I don't know, but you're the one making the claims.

I had a pair of Ls800p subs for some time. I would not call them a horn loaded sub. They are more like a scoop. The port starts high inside the box in the back then exits to a smallish horn flair of sorts in front. No where near long enough to be a tapped horn. At least at a useable freq.

Without a doubt they put out allot of thump. They do also seem to have quite a lowcut filter on them below 40hz or so. With a hump around 80hz.

I looked at the output while trying the crossover settings in the back. Settings were knob all the way down, knob at 12 o'clock and turned all the way up. Notice the gain difference as well.
( If my attachment worked...)

Liked the subs allot but not a one man lug for me.

Douglas R. Allen

[Dave Rickard]

Back to the OP.  why is louder better?  How about we define quality along with level rather than just level defining quality.

Not to argue, but if ultimate fidelity was the goal, we could use home stereo grade gear and have very small concerts...

Why is louder better?  If "louder" means "more efficient" and requires fewer/smaller boxes to do the same job,  I can think of a few reasons in the traveling audio world--

Transportation savings
Load-in/out savings
Storage space savings
AC power consumption savings.

If louder just means "loud but sucks" then never mind. 

The LS800P's aren't the last word in audio sub fidelity, but they don't suck.  When price is factored in, they are one of many excellent choices.

Like everything else in live audio the answer starts with, "It depends".

[Tim McCulloch]

That's where clarity in what's being discussed is important.  Which is what I was trying to point out.  Unsuccessfully, I might add since a tongue in cheek sort of answer just doesn't work well in print form, at least for me.
Bennett's response does not say, "if you operate two cabinets, in the same space where you used to operate one and they are acoustically coupled...".  I took his comment to mean fit in the same space as in truck or van packing space since, based on the pictures, the physical size in the venue in question does not seem to be an issue.

I was trying to point out, since many visit these pages who don't know this info, that merely doubling the driver area does not add 3dB/SPL.  In order to achieve this you must have the drivers acoustically coupled.  You can't move from having one double 18" sub centered in front of the stage for instance and add a second sub but split them left and right and expect to achieve a 6dB/SPL increase.

Lee

The acoustic centers of each transducer need to be within 1/4 wavelength in order to couple additively.  At sub frequencies, that means anywhere from 2'-6'.  It is not necessary for the transducers to occupy the same virtual space.

[Lee Buckalew]

The acoustic centers of each transducer need to be within 1/4 wavelength in order to couple additively.  At sub frequencies, that means anywhere from 2'-6'.  It is not necessary for the transducers to occupy the same virtual space.

Correct you are which is why I did not say "occupy the same virtual space", I said "located adjacent to each other in a manner that allows them to acoustically couple".  Since acoustic coupling depends on wavelength combined with distance from acoustic centers of the device this distance can change.  In many larger subs 2' between acoustical centers is cabinets tightly packed.

Lee

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