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Author Topic: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions  (Read 5294 times)

Joe Long

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Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« on: February 09, 2011, 09:10:02 pm »

As soon as i get them organized im going to put up some pictures of our sanctuary. I know its effecting our sound dramatically and was just curious on the forums thoughts and perhaps suggestions on what we could do and what not. Our sound isnt all that bad with what we're running.
Very simple setup

Behringer Eurodesk 3242fx-pro
Presonus acp 88 compressor for pastor and worship leader
Drums are not micd but yet shield doesnt seem to help either
running mono not stereo
3 onstage monitor wedges
2 sonic t-15 main speakers
3 carvin amps, 1 for mains 1 for subs and 1 for monitors

again just wondering your thoughts on the room acoustics ect...maybe ways to improve sound.

Getting and EQ? Speaker processing?



PICS are on attachments, wasnt sure how to insert them in here
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Ron Balsom

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2011, 03:15:42 am »

Welcome Joe.  You have a beautiful worship area to begin with. Before all the other individuals 'chime in' here, jump on the web and plug-in "Owens Corning #703 accoustic insulation panels".  That will get you started in the right direction in thinking.  There are 'obvious places' that panels could be mounted and even add some 'color' to your area. However, if your 'budget' at all allows for some advice from a competent accoustic technition, that would be money well spent.  You might want to 'post' more info here about what concerns you have such as feedback, drums, echeo, sound at the back of the room, etc.  Blessings,  Ron Balsom HPCC  Casper, Wyoming.   
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Matthias Heitzer

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2011, 05:48:06 am »

Just a few thoughts:

Check the aiming of your main speakers, thy should not hit the walls and ceiling.
If you are running mono, the coverage of the speakers should not overlap.

Are you able to hear at mix position what the congregation hears?

A Drum shield won't do any good if the kit is in front of a reflective wall.
That's the first spot i'd install acoustical treatment.

You did not mention anything that could serve as a crossover for the sub and the mains.
A simple speaker processor could improve things, but setting it up should be done by someone who knows what he is doing.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2011, 08:07:14 am »

Welcome Joe.  You have a beautiful worship area to begin with. Before all the other individuals 'chime in' here, jump on the web and plug-in "Owens Corning #703 accoustic insulation panels".  That will get you started in the right direction in thinking.
Not necessarily.  Some acoustical absorption would likely help but getting started in the right direction for an existing space usually entails first identifying the current conditions and problems followed by defining the goals and expectations.

For example, while I see some large apparently acoustically reflective surfaces, I also see what appears to be a mix position in a different acoustical environment than the listener area, speakers that don't appear to have been located, aimed or selected based on coverage or intelligibility and no system processing (and a little vague on the sub since it is mentioned in relation to the amps but not mentioned in the equipment items noted).  At the same time we don't seem to know the types of music or the levels typically involved, the relationship of music and spoken word to the services, what instruments are run through the system versus using on stage amps, whether stage levels are a factor with the floor monitors, whether there may also be a choir or anything like that and the relative importance of congregational interaction and response.

That's a very long winded way of saying that although the pictures are tremendously helpful, you still need to identify what you are trying to fix and what would be considered a successful result before starting to develop solutions.

One thing I'd be interested to try is since you are running mono, simply turn off one channel.  Maybe even aim the active speaker more at the opposite rear corner of the seating, if that is easy to do.  The imaging will be off to one side but does that help in terms clarity and intelligibility?
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John Fiorello

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2011, 03:04:41 pm »

Hi Joe!

In order to get the best help, it would be great if you could articulate what exactly you don't like about your sound or what you're hoping to change.

If you did include those details and I missed them I apologize!


Thanks!

JF
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2011, 10:26:46 pm »

Without knowing your goals, all I can offer is general advice.  My first thought is your mix position is in a bad place.  Your acoustic environment is vastly different than what the congregation hears. Another thing I would do is move the drums to one side and the singers to other and lose the drum shield.  If the kit is too loud, have your drummer play with rods (or rutes).  I've been using these and love the way they sound.
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Joe Long

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2011, 11:34:57 pm »

In Regards to anyone who posted, sorry if I leave something out.

First, our drummer is well...very passionate about his drumming. Countless times we've talked with him about simmerin down a tid, its helped alot actually. Not as big as a problem there now, however I think it would benefit if we had more control of the drum sound, enclosing it and mic'n them perhaps?

Our Worship is very contemporary. We like to have the best sound we can get. Usual running sunday is 1 acoustic 1 electric guitars. total of 4 vocals bass(perhaps another problem, read on) piano (also read on)

Our spoken word is very dynamic, Talk soft then will get loud in the preaching. If you want you can check out our recordings that dont sound terrible at all ( http://higherpraisesalina.com/audio ) <think i did that right.

As for the soundbooth location// Yes that is a big issue however an issue that I really dont know what to do here. Moving isnt really an option due to we're pushing numbers already in the pews.
the sound is VERY different under the rock than outside (sanctuary)
but you get used to what you hear under there than out there. Usually i'll step in there and take a hear.

Back to the Bass guitar and piano. both "can" be run through the system but they are not. The bass uses own bass amp. So I have no control over him
Piano has built in speaker thing. again cant control him.

OVERALL our sound isnt that bad, I just know it can be waaay better
one thing I would like to settle first is our main worship leaders vocals

I suppose hes a real low singer but can get high notes sorta. But hard to understand when singing the lower notes..make sense? looking for more "clarity i suppose"
but when the other worship leader takes stage his vocals are fine due to the difference in singing.
hope im not rambling on.

i downloaded ROOM EQ, should i give that a shot?
again, if you need anymore info let me know!

thanks again!



EDIT//
Stage monitors! Our three wedges. When I run sound its not to much of a problem, but keeping the stage volume down vs the house volume can be a task at hand as well. just FYI I was reading and saw that mentioned so yes this could be looked into as well.

if anyone wants to chit chat about what we do and run, via email thatd be great just PM me with email and ill shoot one back.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:55:32 pm by Joe Long »
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Chris Penny

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2011, 11:59:15 pm »

I suppose hes a real low singer but can get high notes sorta. But hard to understand when singing the lower notes..make sense? looking for more "clarity i suppose"
but when the other worship leader takes stage his vocals are fine due to the difference in singing.

I have a singer like this (I think). He isn't so much a low singer but his singing voice is naturally quite muddy with very little presence. Makes his voice quite unintelligible when he sings. Fine when doing something simple like an item with an acoustic guitar. Almost impossible to understand with a full band.

I have tried all sorts of things from hitting the EQ quite hard to try and reduce mud and increase presence, which can sort of work but makes him or the rest of instruments sound unnatural.  I could try a different mic but I can't see how much better I can get things if his voice is naturally that difficult to understand. The only other options are training or relegating to back-up only.
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Matthias Heitzer

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 07:26:17 am »

Quote
I have a singer like this (I think). He isn't so much a low singer but his singing voice is naturally quite muddy with very little presence. Makes his voice quite unintelligible when he sings.

Some singers seem to be afraid of consonants, talking with them can help. Some time ago, a girl in our church didn't pronounce the "t" in "mystery". Worship lead didn't notice. A short comment via talkback during rehersal and the "problem" was solved.

If everything technical fails, try communication ;-)
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 06:03:35 pm »

Quote
I suppose hes a real low singer but can get high notes sorta. But hard to understand when singing the lower notes..make sense? looking for more "clarity i suppose"
Well, talking to your drummer helped, you could try the same with him!  Record his singing so you have an example to play back to him.

Quote
Back to the Bass guitar and piano. both "can" be run through the system but they are not. The bass uses own bass amp. So I have no control over him
Piano has built in speaker thing. again cant control him.
I can't imagine that keyboard speaker being able to keep with drums and a bass amp, let alone carry itself out into the sanctuary.  I certainly can't imagine it sounding good.  I would try DI'ing it to FOH and one of those powered personal monitors - pointed right at your keyboardist head.  With the bass, try putting the amp on the floor in front of him pointed upwards towards his head.  Use a DI to send it to FOH and the amp.  You don't mention your electric guitarist using an amp, but if he does, I would recommend the same thing, though you may still want to mic the amp rather than take a DI feed depending on the amp he uses.  I see more bassist not using an amp than guitarists, and I think this makes sense since amps make electric guitars sound much better, whereas basses usually sound great straight into the system.  If your bassist thinks the amp is needed to hear him in the sanctuary, just play some CDs through the system at full blast and demonstrate how the system doesn't need any help from his amp!

I think enclosing and mic'ing drums in your case is more trouble than its worth.  Especially with such a small stage area and a drummer who actually is cooperative.   I would only add mics if you need more.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2011, 10:59:14 am »

Wow.  Your church is just like ours, right down to the arches, fans, projector, and lighting.  I am glad to here you are maxing out the place.

We could not get good sound from the choir or the worship team when they were located between the two little rooms up front.  We finally put the entire worship team down in front of one of the rooms and to one side.  It is not a good layout because they are all lined up in a row but it is a much better sound. Next we brought in a guy who EQed the room and carefully aimed the speakers. That got rid of some harshness and got a more even volume. The next biggest improvement we made in our sound was IEMs.  To my surprise they instantly quieted down the piano and drums. (Why,  Because the cycle of each playing louder then the next to make them selves heard to themselves was broken.)

I agree with others, you need everything going through the sound system.

Frank

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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 01:16:13 am »

As for the mix position, it looks like you'd lose about 18 seats (two rows of pews on one side) to move it to the back of the sanctuary proper. That would certainly improve your ability to tune the sound and would let you mix more effectively.

Could some of that seating be made up for by adding seating in the low-ceiling area in the back? You'd want to have fill speakers under there on an appropriate time delay. The seats in the back may not be so desirable, especially if you need to be standing up while mixing. In my experience, there are plenty of people who would rather sit in the back than hear & see anyway.
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chuck clark

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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 08:50:04 pm »

2 major problems. Drums getting triple bounce off back walls. Get some sonex back there or SOMETHING that ABSORBS sound behind the drummer. (the sound coming off the front of the kit is only 1/4th of the problem!)

That big reflective back wall. Again something that absorbs, like a curtain or drape or some sonex. Make sure your main speakers have some down angle so they are NOT just shooting sound straight into that back wall.

Someone else mentioned IEM's. they do tend to really help reduce the overall amount of sound bouncing around the room. A little ambiance is wonderful but too much bounce interferes with clarity which sounds like what you are dealing with. Have a lovely day.
Chuck
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Re: Sanctuary acoustics/ thoughts/ suggestions
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 08:50:04 pm »


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