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Author Topic: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really  (Read 11796 times)

Matthew Graves (Jr)

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 07:10:48 PM »

I, too, was initially very happy with my Venice 320.  Great sound and small footprint for 32 channels.  But for the same reasons you are running into trouble I quickly relegated it to be my recording/broadcast console.  I rent it out to a couple of recordists when they need more channels, but other than that it does just a couple of live sound gigs a year where I have someone on a separate monitor desk.  Just not enough auxes any way you look at it.  That and the lack of polarity flip, the difficulty in accessing the phantom power buttons and being limited to 4 sub-groups will leave 'most anyone longing for a console better designed for typical live sound needs.
I have a mult pin snake, so accessing the phantom switches isn't that much of an issue for me and for the polarity flip switch, I've made up some cables that I can flip the polarity around at the stage box if I really need too. I am super small enough production company that I rarely run into that issue tho (thank God  :) ) I do like the small foot print for sure as for the subgroups, I find myself assigning everything to L/R anymore anyways. If I need to get a little more gain out of a super low vocal or low input I will assign it to an additional subgroup for that extra gain to give me additional "boost" if you will but for the most part assigned straight to house L&R.   
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Matthew Graves (Jr)

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2011, 07:18:28 PM »

There ya go.

Of course with a single 18 a side are you really gonna see much difference from running the subs off an aux? I could understand if you had 4 double 18s a side and wanted to clean things up but whatever floats your boat. It just sounds to me to be more trouble than it's gonna be worth.

Nope won't "see" a difference at all  ;) I will hear the difference tho, as I already have by sacrificing an effect at a recent gig I've done.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 07:51:11 PM by Matthew Graves (Jr) »
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 09:22:12 PM »

I have a mult pin snake, so accessing the phantom switches isn't that much of an issue for me and for the polarity flip switch, I've made up some cables that I can flip the polarity around at the stage box if I really need too. I am super small enough production company that I rarely run into that issue tho (thank God  :) ) I do like the small foot print for sure as for the subgroups, I find myself assigning everything to L/R anymore anyways. If I need to get a little more gain out of a super low vocal or low input I will assign it to an additional subgroup for that extra gain to give me additional "boost" if you will but for the most part assigned straight to house L&R.

There will come a time when someone does something unannounced on stage which requires you to dump the phantom on a channel to prevent trouble.  Just try reaching down through the other wiring on the back of the console and flipping the button off.  You'll see what I mean.  It's a matter of quick access.......quick enough to avoid a very loud noise from the speakers.

As to the polarity flip:

Again, you need access at the board when a flip on a channel will quickly get rid of some ringing or frequency anomaly due to changing conditions or mic positions.  Having a few at the stage ain't gonna get it.  Again, you will come up against this sooner or later.

As to double bussing to increase the gain:

Just shove the fader up to the top.  If you can't get enough gain there you've got the input gain set too low.  Adding another summing amp into the chain doesn't really help keep your signal chain as clean as possible.
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Dave Bigelow

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 09:36:36 PM »

....
As to double bussing to increase the gain:

Just shove the fader up to the top.  If you can't get enough gain there you've got the input gain set too low.  Adding another summing amp into the chain doesn't really help keep your signal chain as clean as possible.

So true, and if throwing it all the way up doesn't get it then it's time to turn everything else down and mix around the weak singer or too much stage volume.

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Dave Dermont

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 10:15:05 PM »

I like the "Subs From A Bus" idea, but I don't like the "Subs L, Mains R" mono PA idea. Like anything else, know it can be done, in case you ever need to do it that way. A centered pan pot cuts both L & R by 3dB, and adding L also subtracts R and vice versa.

I often run the vocal reverb from the group output, and run a delay and another reverb (the drum one) from the auxes. I know a guy who buses the snare and toms to a group and runs the drum 'verb that way, but he's a drummer, and what the hell do they know?  ;)

As far as "mixing" the amount of signal to the subs, I wouldn't sweat it. The input has LF you want to send to the subs, or it don't. If there is too much LF to your taste take it out of the subs and/or use the EQ.

EQ is allowed here.

I would not rule out a cheap & dirty analog EQ solution, since people are giving those things away. DBX, Ashly, TDM, Rane, any of 'em are good.

You know what I hate? I hate that you can't find a good under $500.00 stereo EQ with a variable HPF anymore. Dialing in that LPF/HPF sweet spot, sometimes with some overlap/underlap was damn handy in the old analog days.

As far as running subs on an aux with just one sub, I see no problem squeezing the very best performance from even the smallest of PA systems.

Keep up the good work, and never stop caring.
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Matthew Graves (Jr)

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2011, 03:56:36 AM »

As far as running subs on an aux with just one sub, I see no problem squeezing the very best performance from even the smallest of PA systems.

Keep up the good work, and never stop caring.


I will always try to do my best and provide the best quality of sound i can possibly provide with the gear I have. I will always care that's why I get on here and stay really super silent and read and read and every couple of years I'll get the nerve built up to humiliate myself and ask a question. I was a member a long, LONG time ago before they switched over to this new formatted forum. I've been building my rig, wrapping other peoples cables, pushing cases and soldering cables for a little while now.. I've been on my own with my own rig for the past 2 yrs...but I've always cared.
Thanks for the input Dave and to everyone else on here. You cats have given me a lot of good advice, and some not so good, I will take from this what I should and implement what makes sense and utilize the knowledge that has been past down. Again, thanks for the time :) \m/
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 03:59:21 AM by Matthew Graves (Jr) »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2011, 10:28:37 AM »

I'm considering aux fed subs for 2 reasons 1: I wanna clear up the "mud" sound and get more of a punch sound from the low end and 2: I am only running a single sub a side right now and I would like for them to run a little more efficient and have a little less program running through them.
These seem to be separate and somewhat conficting goals.  Running less to the subs means lowering the crossover point.  That in turns means probably being less effective at cleaning up the 'mud' with aux fed subs since you'll have more going to the mains and less being eliminated by the aux fed sub arrangement.  So you may be limited in achieving both goals simultaneously.
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Matthew Graves (Jr)

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2011, 12:53:57 PM »

These seem to be separate and somewhat conficting goals.  Running less to the subs means lowering the crossover point.  That in turns means probably being less effective at cleaning up the 'mud' with aux fed subs since you'll have more going to the mains and less being eliminated by the aux fed sub arrangement.  So you may be limited in achieving both goals simultaneously.

I can not lower my crossover points unless I run my system thru a speaker management system (DBX Driverack maybe) and that I don't have as of yet, working on it though... I'm a super small production company and can only buy a piece at a time, I am stuck at the mercy of the Mackie SA1232z tops internal crossovers however, I do have that DBX 1231eq on them and can roll the low end off of them to get rid of the "mud".I did do it when I sacrificed an effect a few gigs back. Subs were mono aux fed and the tops were full range stereo. I did get the desired result...kind of. I didn't have my delay and I also felt as though there was something missing. Still sounded great, to the lame mans ear, but to mine it was maybe..hollow sounding? Does that make sense? I think I'll analyze and see if and where it drops out. I may have rolled off too much on the eq... I bet that's it now that I've just typed that out...hmmm..
I don't see were the conflict is here.. less program to the subs would clean up the frequencies that aren't really supposed to be reproduced by an 18" speaker and therefore cutting down the heat build up in the voice coil and cleaning up a "muddy" sound from the subs.. am I right in thinking this or a weekend warrior idiot? I am not trying to be a smart ass or even a dumb ass in asking these questions, I just want to be thorough and accurate. After all my motto is 'quality above quantity'  :) Thanks  \m/
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2011, 02:05:46 PM »

Honestly I don't see why you need a DSP for this. A simple DBX234 analog crossover will let you adjust the HPF of the tops. Just use the factory XO on the subs. That way you can have an adjustable HPF for the mains. Stack the the subs together and you've got an extra 3db of output for free.

This way the subs are set at 100hz LPF and the top's HPF is adjustable.
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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2011, 03:31:14 PM »

I can not lower my crossover points unless I run my system thru a speaker management system (DBX Driverack maybe)

Tim has a good point about using a simple analog crossover.  You don't need all the bells and whistles of a cheap DSP.  And in regards to the DriveCrap:

http://www.soundforums.net/live/threads/2543-Well-THAT-s-Not-Gonna-Fucking-Work!
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Re: Subs on an Aux BUT.. not really
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2011, 03:31:14 PM »


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