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[J. Douglas Brower]

I am brand new to the forum and found out about you guys throgh a post at the mediashout support forums.  I was hoping to get some basic tips and pointers on setting up our relatively new sound system.  First... Let me give a bit of background...

We are a rural congregation located in North Idaho (USA).  The town has a population of 300.  The largest community in our county (county seat) is a logging town with a population of 2500 and is located a half hour from the church (not much inbetween).  The city of Coeur D'Alene, ID is a 90 minute drive and Spokane WA is a 2 hour drive from the church.  Moscow/Pullman is about 1 hour away.  I don't have the dimensions of our building, but it is a small church with a balcony in the back.  I estimate about 125 in regular attendance and the building is approximately 75% full.

We are a diverse congregation in terms of age.  Lots of small children, about 10-15 teens, young families and a number of retired folks.  We do a mixture of hymns and contemporary worship songs in an accoustic style.  We really only want a good mix of all instruments and vocals without any one blowing out the others in terms of volume.  We also record the service on digital media and would like to include some worship for folks who are shut in and unable to attend the service due to illness or weather.

Here is our setup as best as I can describe:
Our main board is a Behringer Europower PMP6000 which is a powered mixer with effects.  The board is located in the balcony.  We use an unpowered out to go into a digital recorder.  No other audio processing occurs on our current system.  We use the powered outs in bridge mode to power 2 8ohm 250 watt speakers which were custom built.  They are about 3 feet tall and 18 inches deep (without the speaker stands).  I put them on a pair of speaker stands so the sound gets distributed well from the speaker to the church - including the balconies.  There is a snake that goes from the board to the front of the sanctuary.  We use a balanced 1/4" jack on the snake to send a signal to a powered hotspot monitor.  The powered hotspot then drives two more unpowered hotspot monitors located at the front of the church.  We use 3 wired Shure microphones for vocals.  I play guitar and use a Zoom A2.1u effect pedal that has a direct box built into it.  This is plugged into the snake.  We purchased an accoustic piano mic that uses phantom power from the mixer.  this plugs into our snake.  The pastor has a wireless microphone used for the message.  Finally, we sometimes use the output from a laptop computer that also displays the lyrics using MediaShout software using an LCD projector to the wall.  This goes into a direct box specifically made for laptops (ART AVDIBOX).  I believe that just about sums up everything we normally use.

Now... the problem is that I am just unhappy with the sound.  I may be the only one who really notices (or cares...).  We don't get any complaints... but I think it can be better.  There is an audible hum in both the recording and digital recording.  I've tried everything including using the lift function on the direct boxes to no avail.  Also - the vocals are...  well... they just don't sound very good.  I will call the tone washed out.  Finally, something doesn't seem quite right on the board itself.  With the mains turned up about 3/4 of the way to the top (a little below 0 which I believe is where they should be) there is plenty of volume coming out of the speakers, but the output lights on the board (at the far right showing output level) only show 1 or maybe 2 lights (2-5%).  When I bought my Taylaor guitar, it came with a DVD showing how to properly set levels, and I believe we do that right.  (Turn main volume all the way down, all channels mute except the one you are working with, turn chanel slider to 0, play normally and trim to the point where you do not exceed the limit - our board has a light on the trim level indicating when the limit is exceeding so we just turn it up until that lights up and then turn it down slightly until the light doesn't go up).

I have the financial resources to do a little to improve the system (I'd like to keep it below $2500 if possible).  Given all that I've posted - do you have any recommendations?  Thanks in advance for your help - it is very much appreciated!

I've attached a photo taken from the front of the sanctuary looking toward congregation for your reference.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I am brand new to the forum and found out about you guys throgh a post at the mediashout support forums.  I was hoping to get some basic tips and pointers on setting up our relatively new sound system.  First... Let me give a bit of background...

We are a rural congregation located in North Idaho (USA).  The town has a population of 300.  The largest community in our county (county seat) is a logging town with a population of 2500 and is located a half hour from the church (not much inbetween).  The city of Coeur D'Alene, ID is a 90 minute drive and Spokane WA is a 2 hour drive from the church.  Moscow/Pullman is about 1 hour away.  I don't have the dimensions of our building, but it is a small church with a balcony in the back.  I estimate about 125 in regular attendance and the building is approximately 75% full.

We are a diverse congregation in terms of age.  Lots of small children, about 10-15 teens, young families and a number of retired folks.  We do a mixture of hymns and contemporary worship songs in an accoustic style.  We really only want a good mix of all instruments and vocals without any one blowing out the others in terms of volume.  We also record the service on digital media and would like to include some worship for folks who are shut in and unable to attend the service due to illness or weather.

Here is our setup as best as I can describe:
Our main board is a Behringer Europower PMP6000 which is a powered mixer with effects.  The board is located in the balcony.  We use an unpowered out to go into a digital recorder.  No other audio processing occurs on our current system.  We use the powered outs in bridge mode to power 2 8ohm 250 watt speakers which were custom built.  They are about 3 feet tall and 18 inches deep (without the speaker stands).  I put them on a pair of speaker stands so the sound gets distributed well from the speaker to the church - including the balconies.  There is a snake that goes from the board to the front of the sanctuary.  We use a balanced 1/4" jack on the snake to send a signal to a powered hotspot monitor.  The powered hotspot then drives two more unpowered hotspot monitors located at the front of the church.  We use 3 wired Shure microphones for vocals.  I play guitar and use a Zoom A2.1u effect pedal that has a direct box built into it.  This is plugged into the snake.  We purchased an accoustic piano mic that uses phantom power from the mixer.  this plugs into our snake.  The pastor has a wireless microphone used for the message.  Finally, we sometimes use the output from a laptop computer that also displays the lyrics using MediaShout software using an LCD projector to the wall.  This goes into a direct box specifically made for laptops (ART AVDIBOX).  I believe that just about sums up everything we normally use.

Now... the problem is that I am just unhappy with the sound.  I may be the only one who really notices (or cares...).  We don't get any complaints... but I think it can be better.  There is an audible hum in both the recording and digital recording.  I've tried everything including using the lift function on the direct boxes to no avail.  Also - the vocals are...  well... they just don't sound very good.  I will call the tone washed out.  Finally, something doesn't seem quite right on the board itself.  With the mains turned up about 3/4 of the way to the top (a little below 0 which I believe is where they should be) there is plenty of volume coming out of the speakers, but the output lights on the board (at the far right showing output level) only show 1 or maybe 2 lights (2-5%).  When I bought my Taylaor guitar, it came with a DVD showing how to properly set levels, and I believe we do that right.  (Turn main volume all the way down, all channels mute except the one you are working with, turn chanel slider to 0, play normally and trim to the point where you do not exceed the limit - our board has a light on the trim level indicating when the limit is exceeding so we just turn it up until that lights up and then turn it down slightly until the light doesn't go up).

I have the financial resources to do a little to improve the system (I'd like to keep it below $2500 if possible).  Given all that I've posted - do you have any recommendations?  Thanks in advance for your help - it is very much appreciated!

I've attached a photo taken from the front of the sanctuary looking toward congregation for your reference.

You're going to need to change your user name to be your full name to post here - this thread will get locked.

Usually the first thing you work on is getting better main speakers.  Home made 250 watt speakers will likely be a good chunk of your problem.  With a $2500 budget, you'll have a number of options that are reasonable, but you need to tell us more about where the speakers are - are they flown from the building?  On poles?  Drawings of the room including all dimensions will be helpful.

[J. Douglas Brower]

I changed my name in the profile... Hopefully I did it right   I don't have drawings, but the attached picture above should give a pretty good feel of the santctuary.  I attached another photo - this one I took of my kids, but you can see one of the speakers behind them.  They are at the front of the santcuary.  I have since installed them on speaker stands - they are now about 5 feet higher off of the ground.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Your name looks good.

Photos of speakers help, but unfortunately, pretty much all speakers look the same.  You have a few issues to deal with:

 - You have a powered mixer, which means your amplifier is really far away from your speakers.  You have both power losses in the cable, as well as damping factor issues compared to shorter runs.
- You are in bridge mode on your amp - why?  This is probably a bad thing for how you're using your gear.  It would be better to run in stereo mode and run a speaker cable from the amp to each speaker rather than daisy chain them.  This may on paper seem like you're giving your speakers less "watts", but it's better for the long speaker cable runs you have.
- Your speakers are unknown, and the quality is likely not that great.
- The coverage of the speakers may or may not match your room.
- Your mixer is pretty low end, which affects sound quality and expansion also.

Search the forums here for "gain structure" and you'll learn a lot about how to set levels correctly through your board.  One of the first things you'll see is knob position is pretty irrelevant - 75% of a knob isn't really right or wrong as a rule.

If I had $2500 to spend, I would buy a pair of QSC KW122 self powered speakers to replace the home built ones.  This will eat up about $2000 of your budget.  I would take the remaining $500 plus the resale value of your current board and try to purchase a used mixer such as an Allen+Heath Mix Wizard, Mackie Onyx, or other quality board.

Starting with good speakers will give you a good base to build on in the future, and quality speakers will make a far bigger sound quality difference than pretty much everything else.  A better mixer will give you better EQ, which will give you more tools in your toolbox to shape tone, as well as more routing options.

There are a lot of other things that could still be done, but $2500 should get you pretty close to replacing those 3 things, and it will make a big difference.

[Taylor Phillips]

For the hum, you need to try to isolate it.  Listen to every input by itself in some headphones and eliminate those that don't have any hum.  Then once you find the hum, you need to determine if it's a bad mic cable, bad snake channel, bad board channel etc. It can be tedious, but it can be done.  About the gain structure issue, how far are you faders pulled down?  You seem to be using quite a bit more power than you need for 2 250W speakers.  As far as the mics go, how close together are they used.  If one singers voice is picked up in more than one mic, it can cause phasing issues that degrade sound quality.  Also, what model are you using?  A Shure PG58 doesn't sound as good as an SM58.  The first thing I would try though, is EQ.

$2500 dollars can get you a quality pair of powered speakers and a better mixer.  The QSC KWs are fantastic, but I think they may be over kill for you.  You'd probably fine with a pair of EV ELX112P's, or QSC K8s and money left over to get a new Mix Wizard and some new mics (if you indeed need them)

[Steven Leonard]

I am brand new to the forum and found out about you guys throgh a post at the mediashout support forums.  I was hoping to get some basic tips and pointers on setting up our relatively new sound system.  First... Let me give a bit of background...

We are a rural congregation located in North Idaho (USA).  The town has a population of 300.  The largest community in our county (county seat) is a logging town with a population of 2500 and is located a half hour from the church (not much inbetween).  The city of Coeur D'Alene, ID is a 90 minute drive and Spokane WA is a 2 hour drive from the church.  Moscow/Pullman is about 1 hour away.  I don't have the dimensions of our building, but it is a small church with a balcony in the back.  I estimate about 125 in regular attendance and the building is approximately 75% full.

We are a diverse congregation in terms of age.  Lots of small children, about 10-15 teens, young families and a number of retired folks.  We do a mixture of hymns and contemporary worship songs in an accoustic style.  We really only want a good mix of all instruments and vocals without any one blowing out the others in terms of volume.  We also record the service on digital media and would like to include some worship for folks who are shut in and unable to attend the service due to illness or weather.

Here is our setup as best as I can describe:
Our main board is a Behringer Europower PMP6000 which is a powered mixer with effects.  The board is located in the balcony.  We use an unpowered out to go into a digital recorder.  No other audio processing occurs on our current system.  We use the powered outs in bridge mode to power 2 8ohm 250 watt speakers which were custom built.  They are about 3 feet tall and 18 inches deep (without the speaker stands).  I put them on a pair of speaker stands so the sound gets distributed well from the speaker to the church - including the balconies.  There is a snake that goes from the board to the front of the sanctuary.  We use a balanced 1/4" jack on the snake to send a signal to a powered hotspot monitor.  The powered hotspot then drives two more unpowered hotspot monitors located at the front of the church.  We use 3 wired Shure microphones for vocals.  I play guitar and use a Zoom A2.1u effect pedal that has a direct box built into it.  This is plugged into the snake.  We purchased an accoustic piano mic that uses phantom power from the mixer.  this plugs into our snake.  The pastor has a wireless microphone used for the message.  Finally, we sometimes use the output from a laptop computer that also displays the lyrics using MediaShout software using an LCD projector to the wall.  This goes into a direct box specifically made for laptops (ART AVDIBOX).  I believe that just about sums up everything we normally use.

Now... the problem is that I am just unhappy with the sound.  I may be the only one who really notices (or cares...).  We don't get any complaints... but I think it can be better.  There is an audible hum in both the recording and digital recording.  I've tried everything including using the lift function on the direct boxes to no avail.  Also - the vocals are...  well... they just don't sound very good.  I will call the tone washed out.  Finally, something doesn't seem quite right on the board itself.  With the mains turned up about 3/4 of the way to the top (a little below 0 which I believe is where they should be) there is plenty of volume coming out of the speakers, but the output lights on the board (at the far right showing output level) only show 1 or maybe 2 lights (2-5%).  When I bought my Taylaor guitar, it came with a DVD showing how to properly set levels, and I believe we do that right.  (Turn main volume all the way down, all channels mute except the one you are working with, turn chanel slider to 0, play normally and trim to the point where you do not exceed the limit - our board has a light on the trim level indicating when the limit is exceeding so we just turn it up until that lights up and then turn it down slightly until the light doesn't go up).

I have the financial resources to do a little to improve the system (I'd like to keep it below $2500 if possible).  Given all that I've posted - do you have any recommendations?  Thanks in advance for your help - it is very much appreciated!

I've attached a photo taken from the front of the sanctuary looking toward congregation for your reference.

Hey J. Douglas!

Nice looking congregation! Looks like a great church!

I think the above posts all hit the nail on the head. Upgrade the speakers. Nothing against homemade stuff..some of it can be really good. However for us to diagnose without being there to hear them, or see their workmanship it is hard to say.

You are correct in getting them off the ground. Be sure not raise them too high. The top horn should be just above average ear level. If the congregation is switching between sitting and standing (As most congregations do) this is obviously going to be a compromise.

QSC KW line is nice. I have been really happy with the JBL PRX Series as well. These are light but really loud!

I would definitely replace the powered mixer. As said above a used Allen & Heath Mix Wiz would be ideal. This will give you so much flexibility for future! Plus the eqs and preamps are really nice.

As for the noise hard to say without being there. The speaker and mixer upgrade could possibly fix your problems. Try powering your mixer off the same AC outlet as the amps/powered speakers and see if it solves the problem.

Hope that helps!

Give us an update on what you decide to do and then post some pics of the new system!

Best of luck!

Steven

[Stu McDoniel]

I am brand new to the forum and found out about you guys throgh a post at the mediashout support forums.  I was hoping to get some basic tips and pointers on setting up our relatively new sound system.  First... Let me give a bit of background...

We are a rural congregation located in North Idaho (USA).  The town has a population of 300.  The largest community in our county (county seat) is a logging town with a population of 2500 and is located a half hour from the church (not much inbetween).  The city of Coeur D'Alene, ID is a 90 minute drive and Spokane WA is a 2 hour drive from the church.  Moscow/Pullman is about 1 hour away.  I don't have the dimensions of our building, but it is a small church with a balcony in the back.  I estimate about 125 in regular attendance and the building is approximately 75% full.

We are a diverse congregation in terms of age.  Lots of small children, about 10-15 teens, young families and a number of retired folks.  We do a mixture of hymns and contemporary worship songs in an accoustic style.  We really only want a good mix of all instruments and vocals without any one blowing out the others in terms of volume.  We also record the service on digital media and would like to include some worship for folks who are shut in and unable to attend the service due to illness or weather.

Here is our setup as best as I can describe:
Our main board is a Behringer Europower PMP6000 which is a powered mixer with effects.  The board is located in the balcony.  We use an unpowered out to go into a digital recorder.  No other audio processing occurs on our current system.  We use the powered outs in bridge mode to power 2 8ohm 250 watt speakers which were custom built.  They are about 3 feet tall and 18 inches deep (without the speaker stands).  I put them on a pair of speaker stands so the sound gets distributed well from the speaker to the church - including the balconies.  There is a snake that goes from the board to the front of the sanctuary.  We use a balanced 1/4" jack on the snake to send a signal to a powered hotspot monitor.  The powered hotspot then drives two more unpowered hotspot monitors located at the front of the church.  We use 3 wired Shure microphones for vocals.  I play guitar and use a Zoom A2.1u effect pedal that has a direct box built into it.  This is plugged into the snake.  We purchased an accoustic piano mic that uses phantom power from the mixer.  this plugs into our snake.  The pastor has a wireless microphone used for the message.  Finally, we sometimes use the output from a laptop computer that also displays the lyrics using MediaShout software using an LCD projector to the wall.  This goes into a direct box specifically made for laptops (ART AVDIBOX).  I believe that just about sums up everything we normally use.

Now... the problem is that I am just unhappy with the sound.  I may be the only one who really notices (or cares...).  We don't get any complaints... but I think it can be better.  There is an audible hum in both the recording and digital recording.  I've tried everything including using the lift function on the direct boxes to no avail.  Also - the vocals are...  well... they just don't sound very good.  I will call the tone washed out.  Finally, something doesn't seem quite right on the board itself.  With the mains turned up about 3/4 of the way to the top (a little below 0 which I believe is where they should be) there is plenty of volume coming out of the speakers, but the output lights on the board (at the far right showing output level) only show 1 or maybe 2 lights (2-5%).  When I bought my Taylaor guitar, it came with a DVD showing how to properly set levels, and I believe we do that right.  (Turn main volume all the way down, all channels mute except the one you are working with, turn chanel slider to 0, play normally and trim to the point where you do not exceed the limit - our board has a light on the trim level indicating when the limit is exceeding so we just turn it up until that lights up and then turn it down slightly until the light doesn't go up).

I have the financial resources to do a little to improve the system (I'd like to keep it below $2500 if possible).  Given all that I've posted - do you have any recommendations?  Thanks in advance for your help - it is very much appreciated!

I've attached a photo taken from the front of the sanctuary looking toward congregation for your reference.

You have a sweet looking congregation there!  Nice high ceiling..GOOD....bare walls
BAD...  Spend some money and do something with those walls with cloth hangings or
make some acoustic absorbtion panels yourself...Here is a video on how to make some panels
and choose the cloth to match your room colors.   There is no better tweak on GODS green earth then to fix the room acoustics.   I tell you now if you build panels and put them up around
the room you will notice a huge change in your sound.  Also, Put a panel on the wall just to the side of each speaker to catch that first wave reflection.

Here is your link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lc0BjFHoA8

[J. Douglas Brower]

Wow!  First - thank you all for your thoughtful advice.  I can see that there is valuable insight to be found here!

Next - I must apologize for a bit of misinformation in my original post.  After a men's Bible study at our church tonight, I went to the sanctuary to check a few things out and found that the speakers are 500 watts at 8ohms, not 250 watts as I originally stated (this is what the sticker says and I have no idea how this translates to rms/program/peak).  Also - there is a plaque on the front of the speakers that says 'EAI Engineered Audio International' and a quick internet search lead me to www.eaispeakers.com...  so... not sure about the pastor's claim that the speakers were custom made.  There is also a sticker that says 'cust' with some numbers after it - so maybe the speakers were custom made by EAI for the member who originally ordered the speaker...  I don't know.  The speaker certainly resembles closely speakers in their catalog, although I can't find a perfect match per-se.  The pastor claims the speakers are 5-6 years old.  They were present at the church before I became a member.

Question - in regard to replacing the board - would it be possible to achieve a similar result by purchasing a higher quality separate amp and use the board for input and mix?  The board is 12-18 months old and I'd hate to ask the church to replace it (don't even know if that is a real option 'politically' to be frank).

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

$2500 dollars can get you a quality pair of powered speakers and a better mixer.  The QSC KWs are fantastic, but I think they may be over kill for you.  You'd probably fine with a pair of EV ELX112P's, or QSC K8s and money left over to get a new Mix Wizard and some new mics (if you indeed need them)

K8s are pretty limiting - unless you specifically need the speaker to be really small, I actually don't understand the draw of the K8.  It doesn't have a monitor angle, and is virtually the same price as the much more useful K10.

I stand by my recommendation that buying a quality speaker with some headroom for future growth makes a lot of sense.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Wow!  First - thank you all for your thoughtful advice.  I can see that there is valuable insight to be found here!

Next - I must apologize for a bit of misinformation in my original post.  After a men's Bible study at our church tonight, I went to the sanctuary to check a few things out and found that the speakers are 500 watts at 8ohms, not 250 watts as I originally stated (this is what the sticker says and I have no idea how this translates to rms/program/peak).  Also - there is a plaque on the front of the speakers that says 'EAI Engineered Audio International' and a quick internet search lead me to www.eaispeakers.com...  so... not sure about the pastor's claim that the speakers were custom made.  There is also a sticker that says 'cust' with some numbers after it - so maybe the speakers were custom made by EAI for the member who originally ordered the speaker...  I don't know.  The speaker certainly resembles closely speakers in their catalog, although I can't find a perfect match per-se.  The pastor claims the speakers are 5-6 years old.  They were present at the church before I became a member.

Question - in regard to replacing the board - would it be possible to achieve a similar result by purchasing a higher quality separate amp and use the board for input and mix?  The board is 12-18 months old and I'd hate to ask the church to replace it (don't even know if that is a real option 'politically' to be frank).

The wattage really is pretty meaningless - it doesn't really tell anything about the quality of sound coming out of the speaker, the coverage angle, or even the volume.  I still think they have to go.

I understand the political issues about the board.  You can certainly still use it if it's politically desirable to do so.  Also the unit can be switched to "main/monitor mode", and could be used to power a monitor channel some day.

The idea of adding some soundproofing is probably a good one.

First rules of sound reinforcement: 

- Get some advice and make a plan - this will minimize purchases that soon become limitations
- Point the speakers at the people's ears
- Minimize indirect sound - either from the stage, or reflections off the building
- Spend your money first on the transducers - microphones and speakers.  If you have decent mikes like Shure SM58s, you're probably good on that end

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