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[Stu McDoniel]

I'm looking for tips on how best to mix in a situation where I am limited to a certain volume level.

Essentially, this has come around because a few key members of the church complained of it being too loud - one is a trustee, the second a long term member of the church who is well respected. As a result, the church has very quickly taken action to try and minimalise excessive levels. In the week that these individuals complained, i am of the oppinion that it was due to the worship leaders style of singing - naturally quite piercing - that led people to feel it was too loud.

Nevertheless, we now have to limit our mixes to approximately 85dB (A Weighted) measured approximately in the middle of the congregation during the rehearsal with noone else there (about 10m from both speakers - stereo spread), in order to provide a consistent level week in, week out.

My personal oppinions aside in this matter, do you have any tips on how best to mix for this scenario? We are currently using a pair of 18" subs and a pair of 15/12" tops (I can't remember! one each per side though), driven by a single stereo amp. We're using a Behringher mixer, and we also have a Behringher graphic EQ (don't bring up the questionablity of the gear, I don't like it either, but we don't have the budget for much else), stage volume can often be too loud, but we're working on it - it's mostly just the monitors being too loud, and worship style is relatively contemporary, but instruments vary from week to week, but often include drums, bass, acoustic guitar, keys and 3 vocals.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

If you are dealing with electric guitars and amps, and a drumset 85db is impossible
Shut the soundsystem off and take a reading on the C scale and if the band is 90 db you
can NOT squeeze blood out of a turnip!  You have to get the system 5db or more over the top
of the bands output.   Here is what you can do.  Shut everything off and run vocals only
If you are over 90db with that then you just cant do it.   You have to get a plastic booth
to put the drums in and that will lower stage volume in a big way.  Electric instuments can
turn down to almost nothing.  You have a real challenge here for sure.

[Jonathan Johnson]

If you are dealing with electric guitars and amps, and a drumset 85db is impossible
Shut the soundsystem off and take a reading on the C scale and if the band is 90 db you
can NOT squeeze blood out of a turnip! 

Or you could just get the complainers active noise cancellation headphones.

(OK, that's not really a solution. It was just an ornery thought I had.)

[Aiden Garrett]

Thanks for your replies guys.

Ryan: I feel yes, I was mixing to consistent levels by ear. One of the individuals mentioned briefly that the vocals were too loud, but beyond that, I was unable to clarify further what exactly was wrong.
The guy who was mixing on Sunday lowered the monitors to a much more appropriate volume, but, having overheard conversations after church, I think some of the band still struggled to hear, both during the rehearsals and the service.
We have a portable setup, so speaker position changes slightly each week, but we try and minimize the changes made to the graphic. As for walking the room, I regularly walk the room, both during the rehearsals and during the morning service, with the aim of trying to get a consistent sound throughout the room.

Taylor: I thoroughly agree on the subtractive mixing idea, and when I mix monitors for the drummer (who uses in ears - I have a headphone amp, but I and him are the only ones who use it) I use this consistently, but for wedges the band struggle with the concept of "what do they need less of" as opposed to "what they want more of"; but I try my best! As for the A vs C weighting, what difference does this have to the overall listening experience?

Matthew: Thanks for the tips, I'll try and find time on a Sunday morning to put that into practice!

Frank & Jonathan: I like!

Chris: I agree, 85dB does seem restrictive, and during the service, I felt it severely lacking in dynamics. During the rehearsals, I brought up my thoughts about it being too quiet and the congregation being afraid of singing. During the service, it wasn't too much of an issue as the congregation were singing and could be heard, but I wasn't so sure about how well the band could be heard.

Brad: I measured background noise in the room at around 45dB (in silent gaps during the talk, and the fan of the amp was audible from the back). As for changes between rehearsals and the service, the main thing I find myself accommodating for is the high end.
The 85dBA is our target peak. The guy mixing on Sunday set the meter up for A weighted, fast response, and the option to hold the peak value. (For reference, this is the meter we brought: http://cpc.farnell.com/_/st-805/sound-level-meter/dp/IN04453)
I wouldn't say that when I mix, the levels vary greatly, but they do follow the "shape" of the music. For example, slower, quieter songs are much quieter than more upbeat songs. When the guy mixing on Sunday stuck to the 85dB however, I felt the range in volume was severely limited, and IMO this was because of his mixing style and sticking to the limit. It felt like the songs were mushed into one (apologies for the poor description!)

Kent: We have electronic drums, and I'm not the biggest fan of them, but I appreciate that in the room we rent, they are a big help. And at my previous church, I knew quite a few drummers who were capable of hitting kits softly!
As for IEMS, I would love for the band to use them, but currently, I use them on the rare occasion that I play; and our main drummer uses them every week. The headphone amp we use was invested in by me recently, but before, the drummer used to use a wedge. I make the headphone amp available each week, but the band is very unsure of using headphones/in ears (understandably), and several of our vocalists shunned their use! On the contrary, the vocalist I mentioned in my original post, was surprised and impressed at the few of us using them!
As for amps, the church doesn't have the money to invest in alternatives, and as a guitarist myself, my money wouldn't be spent on them. On the other hand, I always have my amp's speakers pointing up towards me!

Many thanks for all your tips!

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

One persons joyful noise is another persons infernal racket.

A poor mix at 85 db will seem louder than a clean mix which actually has a higher SPL.

[Taylor Phillips]

Taylor: I thoroughly agree on the subtractive mixing idea, and when I mix monitors for the drummer (who uses in ears - I have a headphone amp, but I and him are the only ones who use it) I use this consistently, but for wedges the band struggle with the concept of "what do they need less of" as opposed to "what they want more of"; but I try my best! As for the A vs C weighting, what difference does this have to the overall listening experience?

They may not know what they want less of, but they do know what they want more of.  So, turn down all the other things by the same amount.  Listen in your headphones to the monitor mixes when you adjust them.  If you can, walk about on stage a bit and listen for things that are too loud, or not loud enough. 

As for A and C weighting, two different songs can give you the same reading using A weighting even though one of them seems a good bit louder.  The reason it seems louder is because it is, but the difference is that there is a lot more bass in the louder song, that A weighting doesn't measure.  To give you an example, some time ago I was running a youth service and noticed my meter was giving a reading of 88dBA slow response during a really loud song, the same 88dB that it read during the quiet song.  Switch to C weighting it went up to 100dB.  But, since it seems its the high end you're compensating for and getting complaints about, that might not be much use to you.  What may be the case is that there is plenty of high end near the front, but it drops off a good bit going further back.  How high do you mount your speakers?

[Kent Thompson]

Kent: We have electronic drums, and I'm not the biggest fan of them, but I appreciate that in the room we rent, they are a big help. And at my previous church, I knew quite a few drummers who were capable of hitting kits softly!
As for IEMS, I would love for the band to use them, but currently, I use them on the rare occasion that I play; and our main drummer uses them every week. The headphone amp we use was invested in by me recently, but before, the drummer used to use a wedge. I make the headphone amp available each week, but the band is very unsure of using headphones/in ears (understandably), and several of our vocalists shunned their use! On the contrary, the vocalist I mentioned in my original post, was surprised and impressed at the few of us using them!
As for amps, the church doesn't have the money to invest in alternatives, and as a guitarist myself, my money wouldn't be spent on them. On the other hand, I always have my amp's speakers pointing up towards me!

Many thanks for all your tips!

We or rather I purchased one of those 6 channel presonus headphone amps that we use. It cost a little under $350. I looked at a ton of headphones and found some decent AT headphones for about $40.00ea. Two of our musicians had their own earphones one was a shure set the other had a custom molded set. At first our bass player told me absolutely no. Then one day I set up a mix and gave him the headphones and said here take a listen to these. His jaw dropped at the clarity he has been in ears ever since then.  I previously had conversations with the worship pastor and planned this out for a few weeks and had his support in going monitor less and amp less on stage. We still have 3 monitors on stage but they are run at low levels and on the opposite side of the stage from the drummer. So now everyone but the horn players, choir and the leaders wife(who we are in the process of switching to in ears) are on earphones or headphones and there are no guitar amplifiers on stage at all. It makes a world of difference in the sound. To sum it up it is not that expensive but, you do need the support of your leadership in fact I bet if you pitch this to your leadership they can help you make it happen because it will get you closer to the goal they set for you. When your leader says everyone is going headphones or in ears it is going to happen. Then all you have to do is work hard with the musicians to get them a mix they like and everyone will be happy.

I will also echo what dick mentioned about a pour mix seeming louder. Some vocalist using some microphones can pierce. If you have a parametric eq available sweep through the area from about 900hz to 3k looking for frequencies that "hurt you" and cut them until the harshness is gone.

[Brad Weber]

The guy mixing on Sunday set the meter up for A weighted, fast response, and the option to hold the peak value.

Most general acoustic measurements including most noise exposure and environmental noise measurements are made using slow response.

When the guy mixing on Sunday stuck to the 85dB however, I felt the range in volume was severely limited, and IMO this was because of his mixing style and sticking to the limit. It felt like the songs were mushed into one (apologies for the poor description!).

Completely understand your description.  If you have a 45dBA ambient noise level then that means that if the quietest passages are be easily understood you probably want the levels to stay above 55dBA or so.  At the same time, live music can easily have an average level 20dB below the peak levels, which with an 85dBA maximum level equates to an average level around 65dBA.  The seems to potentially leave less than a 10dB range within which the average level can vary and that's not much of a range.

The only way to increase that range without increasing the maximum level is to reduce the difference between the peak and average levels (the crest factor) of the music.  And that means reducing the dynamic of the music so you can potentially increase the average level.

[Arnold B. Krueger]

You just haven't met a good drummer.   They're few and far between, but they're out there, and their technique can be taught.

I agree with you totally. A really good drummer can do amazing things. Problem is that in the average church,  the sound guy and even the WD doesn't have a smorgasboard of drummers to choose from.  You yourself just disqualified your advice by admitting that really good drummers are few and far between. If you aren't a megachurch, getting one is Act Of God.

  Or you could just make your drummer use these.  They're much quieter than sticks, but sound much more like them than brushes.

Well now, you're playing "sounds like".  So the discussion turns away from what's optimal or ideal, to what you can get away with. IOW, we are now back in the real world.

Definitely don't get an electronic drum kit without also getting in-ears, the stage volume will be the same as it was with an acoustic kit, but with muddy drum sound coming from the stage instead clean.

Having been there and done that for maybe 5 years, I'd say the exact opposite. Electronic drums put the mixer into the loop which is where he usually belongs. Of course, if the mixer is an idiot or simply not aware of his options, then putting the mixer into the loop is a bad idea.

Presuming an average mixer man who has options and knows how to exploit them, what you do is set the drummer up with a monitor speaker that minimizes spill or only spills where it doesn't matter, and then you further equalize and set monitor levels for that speaker to minimize spill and still get the drummer the feedback he needs.

The above strategy can put you zillions of miles ahead of acoustic drums played by an average or less drummer. Of course having options presumes a good monitor speaker, a good mixng board with flexible options for equalization, and a mixer who knows what to do.  That might be as rare as a good drummer, but at least one can specify equipment over the web, buy it for a reasonable amount of money, and reveal the strategy in a single post to an online conference. Finding drummers is IME not that easy.

Yes, we ran for about 6 years before we got our Aviom system, and much of that time our drummer was an OK kid who learned how to drum at his high school the year before. No real problems getting relatively clean sound in a very live room.

Another problem you might run into using electronic drums with the in-ears while worrying about appeasing the folks who complained, is going in the opposite direction and having lifeless music.

Is there an implication here that electonric drums equals lifeless music? IME lifeless music is symtomatic of problems in the artistic department which of course includes the mixer. Good musicans are IME blunt stick people - give them equipment that is no more than blunt sticks and they will still do a good job.

Something else you should do is get the folks who complained involved in the process of improving the sound.  If they're really committed to making the music better for everyone they'll be glad to help and appreciate that you didn't just blow them off, if they're not, they just might leave you alone.

My question is what else changed recently? IME you may have to wait for weeks before the response to any signficiant change results in comments unless it has very dramatic effects.  And perhaps, even if...

[Taylor Phillips]

I agree with you totally. A really good drummer can do amazing things. Problem is that in the average church,  the sound guy and even the WD doesn't have a smorgasboard of drummers to choose from.  You yourself just disqualified your advice by admitting that really good drummers are few and far between. If you aren't a megachurch, getting one is Act Of God.

Well now, you're playing "sounds like".  So the discussion turns away from what's optimal or ideal, to what you can get away with. IOW, we are now back in the real world.

Learning to play drums quietly actually isn't as hard as learning to play them well.  Everyone can learn to adjust the force they use to hit something with, but not all of them have the rhythm,  coordination or patience to learn to play drums.  Most people seem to have this backwards in their beliefs.  As for the Hot Rods, I actually prefer to use them when I play myself because of both sound and feel, and get about a 10dB reduction in volume compared to sticks. (Yes, I have measured it ) Anyway, just spending a couple of minutes before or during rehearsal can make an immense amount of difference in your drummer.  To give you an example, one drummer I had was playing to loud in the room without amplification - I talked to him, showed him how I played (I'm not good enough to play in the band myself -the whole rhythm and coordination thing) and then I had to go looking for some drum mics.

Presuming an average mixer man who has options and knows how to exploit them, what you do is set the drummer up with a monitor speaker that minimizes spill or only spills where it doesn't matter, and then you further equalize and set monitor levels for that speaker to minimize spill and still get the drummer the feedback he needs.

So, in other words, you really do need to know what you're doing for it to work. 

Is there an implication here that electonric drums equals lifeless music?

Absolutely not.  What there is the possibility to turn them down to almost nothing and mix is lifeless - you can't feel the rhythm anymore. 

[Kent Thompson]

I would change the db meter to slow instead of fast.

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