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Author Topic: Mixing to a certain volume level...  (Read 12565 times)

Aiden Garrett

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Mixing to a certain volume level...
« on: September 18, 2011, 12:39:30 PM »

I'm looking for tips on how best to mix in a situation where I am limited to a certain volume level.

Essentially, this has come around because a few key members of the church complained of it being too loud - one is a trustee, the second a long term member of the church who is well respected. As a result, the church has very quickly taken action to try and minimalise excessive levels. In the week that these individuals complained, i am of the oppinion that it was due to the worship leaders style of singing - naturally quite piercing - that led people to feel it was too loud.

Nevertheless, we now have to limit our mixes to approximately 85dB (A Weighted) measured approximately in the middle of the congregation during the rehearsal with noone else there (about 10m from both speakers - stereo spread), in order to provide a consistent level week in, week out.

My personal oppinions aside in this matter, do you have any tips on how best to mix for this scenario? We are currently using a pair of 18" subs and a pair of 15/12" tops (I can't remember! one each per side though), driven by a single stereo amp. We're using a Behringher mixer, and we also have a Behringher graphic EQ (don't bring up the questionablity of the gear, I don't like it either, but we don't have the budget for much else), stage volume can often be too loud, but we're working on it - it's mostly just the monitors being too loud, and worship style is relatively contemporary, but instruments vary from week to week, but often include drums, bass, acoustic guitar, keys and 3 vocals.

Thanks in advance for your advice!
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Ryan M. Fluharty

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 02:27:55 PM »

I'm looking for tips on how best to mix in a situation where I am limited to a certain volume level.

Essentially, this has come around because a few key members of the church complained of it being too loud - one is a trustee, the second a long term member of the church who is well respected. As a result, the church has very quickly taken action to try and minimalise excessive levels. In the week that these individuals complained, i am of the oppinion that it was due to the worship leaders style of singing - naturally quite piercing - that led people to feel it was too loud.

Nevertheless, we now have to limit our mixes to approximately 85dB (A Weighted) measured approximately in the middle of the congregation during the rehearsal with noone else there (about 10m from both speakers - stereo spread), in order to provide a consistent level week in, week out.

My personal oppinions aside in this matter, do you have any tips on how best to mix for this scenario? We are currently using a pair of 18" subs and a pair of 15/12" tops (I can't remember! one each per side though), driven by a single stereo amp. We're using a Behringher mixer, and we also have a Behringher graphic EQ (don't bring up the questionablity of the gear, I don't like it either, but we don't have the budget for much else), stage volume can often be too loud, but we're working on it - it's mostly just the monitors being too loud, and worship style is relatively contemporary, but instruments vary from week to week, but often include drums, bass, acoustic guitar, keys and 3 vocals.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Not to to argue for/against your situation, but I find that when somebody describes something as being "too loud," its really too general of a term to find a solution to the real problem, especially if you're not talking strictly db levels. Typically it means the sound is unbalanced whether instrument to vocals or eq-wise.  You mentioned that the vocal was piercing, and the sound system at my church can be described as "piercing" at times too, even with lower db levels.  The point I'm trying to make is to maybe talk with those people and get them to describe in more detail why they thought that particular service was "louder" than others.  I'm assuming you were already mixing at a semi-consistent level by ear.

Now on to your situation...you say that your stage volume is loud, especially from the monitors. I'm not an expert in db levels, but I bet your measurements will come close to 85dbA just from the stage volume alone, especially if you use acoustic drums.  One of the potential problems I see (and I think you realize it as well) is that you're measuring in empty room.  Bodies make good sound absorption.  I say this for 2 reasons: 1. The 85 dbA you measure will likely decrease from sound being absorbed rather than reflected during a service and 2.  The worship team is likely getting a mix of FOH and monitors on stage.  If you were to lower the monitor volume to a "good" mix for FOH and monitors at rehearsal, the worship team would probably struggle to hear themselves on Sunday morning.  It's happened to me countless times when I've played on the team.  This isn't to say you shouldn't try to lower the monitor levels, but know they might need a little boost from where you set them with an empty room.

As far as EQ goes, if your FOH eq was set up by a professional who tuned your room, don't touch it.  Harshness usually happens between 2-4khz and if you find a source is too harsh, try lowering this on your channel eq. Also, during rehearsal, it helps to walk the room and see how things sound from where people will be sitting.  For instance, our sound booth is off axis of the speakers, so if we mixed to sound great in the booth, everything would sound thin and harsh in the main seating area.
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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 02:56:51 PM »

Nevertheless, we now have to limit our mixes to approximately 85dB (A Weighted) measured approximately in the middle of the congregation during the rehearsal with noone else there (about 10m from both speakers - stereo spread), in order to provide a consistent level week in, week out.

... stage volume can often be too loud, but we're working on it - it's mostly just the monitors being too loud, and worship style is relatively contemporary, but instruments vary from week to week, but often include drums, bass, acoustic guitar, keys and 3 vocals.

Thanks in advance for your advice!
Much of the time the reason monitors get too loud is because their mix isn't good.  A good way to mix the monitors without getting them too loud is what some call 'subtractive' mixing, i.e.: If a backup singer can't hear her voice in the monitor, don't turn her up, turn everything else down etc.  Listen to the monitor mixes in your headphones and on stage also.  This can tell you what things are missing and what can be taken down or out.  Another thing to do is to use C weighting instead of A weighting because A weighting doesn't respond to bass near as much.  I've done services where A weighting said it was 88dB SPL, but C weighting it was near 100dB SPL.   
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Matthew Donadio

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2011, 06:06:58 PM »

I am going through a somewhat similar situation right now.

In my case, "too loud" normally does mean it is a bad mix, normally because    amps and/or drums on stage are too loud or the monitors are just too loud overall.

In addition to what others have said, I would do a few things.

One, is that you need to figure out the sound levels in general.  Start taking notes throughout the whole service and record sound levels for each portion.  You might be surprised.  Also take note about levels from mains only and monitors only during rehearsal.

Second, play some CDs you know well through the mains and try to get a feel for the sound levels.  Do this both monitoring SPL and not.

The third part is to build your relationship with the band so that you can work together to get stage level under control.  You need to know what they need out of the monitors and they need to trust you so that when you ask to turn something down, they will do so knowing that the overall situation will be better.

The fourth thing is to work out a good routine, and make sure the band knows what you are doing.  Mine is to check gain staging, get a good mains-only mix, get a good monitor mix in the cans, and then bring up the monitors  to the minimum level that is needed.  When the service gets going, I then adjust as needed.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2011, 06:28:23 PM »

I was told to hold the level to 85  I kept pulling down the main and realized the congregation was at 87 so I turned off the sound system.  We had a meeting.

Now we hold it at 90 using IEMs   Much easier.

I found it very helpful to do a extensive bible search on the word Loud.  I found I am in good company.  God likes it loud. 

My favorite verse is "Be still and know that I am God.  Why, because back in context, it reads

10 He says, “Be still, and know that I am God;
   I will be exalted among the nations,
   I will be exalted in the earth.”

 11 The LORD Almighty is with us;
   the God of Jacob is our fortress.

1 Clap your hands, all you nations;
   shout to God with cries of joy.

 2 For the LORD Most High is awesome,
   the great King over all the earth.
3 He subdued nations under us,
   peoples under our feet.
4 He chose our inheritance for us,
   the pride of Jacob, whom he loved.

5 God has ascended amid shouts of joy,
   the LORD amid the sounding of trumpets.

6 Sing praises to God, sing praises;
   sing praises to our King, sing praises.
7 For God is the King of all the earth;
   sing to him a psalm of praise.
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Chris Penny

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2011, 07:23:46 PM »

Frank, apart from the fact that both Psalm 46+47 are Psalms by the Son's of Korah, I am unsure if they should be linked like this.
I will however say that agree that God has no problems with loud when it comes to praising him (I love to refer to Psalm 150:5 when attempting to teach drum mixing).

On the technical question of SPL I will admit 85 dBA sounds awfully restricting for contemporary music and I would think that most congregations would be louder than that (I did once measure ours as 88 dBA from the back of the room). I agree with others I would be looking at your system/room response to see if their is an acoustical issue. I also agree with Ryan with looking at your channel EQ's in the 2-4k region especially on your vocals.

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Brad Weber

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 08:42:23 AM »

Nevertheless, we now have to limit our mixes to approximately 85dB (A Weighted) measured approximately in the middle of the congregation during the rehearsal with noone else there (about 10m from both speakers - stereo spread), in order to provide a consistent level week in, week out.
The number is one thing but I'm guessing the conditions during a service (the background noise levels, the levels from the congregation, the room acoustics, etc.) may differ significantly from those during a rehearsal.  And how do you accommodate anything changing between rehearsal and the service?

On a technical level, does the 85dBA apply to the absolute peak level, a 'guesstimated' average level or what?  Does the meter have different response settings, e.g. fast and slow, and what response is being used?  Similarly, does the music tend to have limited dynamics, either naturally or via applied compression, or does it vary greatly in level?

I agree with the others that what really needs to be done is to look at not just the overall level but also the content and quality.  Is it really just the level that is the problem or might the frequency response, coverage, dynamics, distortion, etc. also be factors?
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Brian Ehlers

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2011, 07:36:41 PM »

As Frank pointed out, chances are that your congregation's singing is already above 85 dB.  For the instruments to lead the congregation, thwy will need to be about 6 dB higher than that.  The people setting the rules have to understand this.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 06:33:34 PM »

As Frank pointed out, chances are that your congregation's singing is already above 85 dB.  For the instruments to lead the congregation, thwy will need to be about 6 dB higher than that.  The people setting the rules have to understand this.

Being that you may have to live with this regardless here are a few things you can do.

Buy electronic drums.( I can't ever remember a drummer that could hit that soft on acoustic drums)

Get rid of all monitors go to in ear or headphones for monitors. This might mean getting something like a Hearback or Aviom system.

Get rid of all amplifiers on stage by using amp simulators such as line 6 or sansamp (or the like) that gives you a direct out.

Have someone come in and optimize your sound system (set proper speaker locations, eq, delays etc) and also look at the room acoustics.

I am sure there are more pointers others will have.

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Taylor Phillips

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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 09:23:25 PM »

Buy electronic drums.( I can't ever remember a drummer that could hit that soft on acoustic drums)

Get rid of all monitors go to in ear or headphones for monitors. This might mean getting something like a Hearback or Aviom system.
You just haven't met a good drummer. :)  They're few and far between, but they're out there, and their technique can be taught.  Or you could just make your drummer use these.  They're much quieter than sticks, but sound much more like them than brushes.

Definitely don't get an electronic drum kit without also getting in-ears, the stage volume will be the same as it was with an acoustic kit, but with muddy drum sound coming from the stage instead clean.  Another problem you might run into using electronic drums with the in-ears while worrying about appeasing the folks who complained, is going in the opposite direction and having lifeless music.

Something else you should do is get the folks who complained involved in the process of improving the sound.  If they're really committed to making the music better for everyone they'll be glad to help and appreciate that you didn't just blow them off, if they're not, they just might leave you alone.
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Re: Mixing to a certain volume level...
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 09:23:25 PM »


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