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Author Topic: Church speakers proposal  (Read 6368 times)

Russ Buck

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Church speakers proposal
« on: January 31, 2011, 08:19:18 pm »

Attached is a speaker recommendation for our sanctuary.  Can I get some feedback as to what is shown here.  For those who haven't read my earlier post.  sanctuary seats approx. 150 is 45' wide x 50 deep. 25' high ceiling.  the center cluster pictured is 11' from the back wall and 16 1/2' off the floor to top of speaker. the front row of seats start at 15' from the back wall.    The speaker would hang right under the light toward the back wall.  (just behind light)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:11:22 am by Russ Buck »
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Russ Buck

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Speaker proposal SPL Maping
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 08:30:10 pm »

 >:(here is the SPL charts
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:57:19 am by Russ Buck »
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Russ Buck

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 12:03:08 pm »

Also I am trying to figure out the best way hook these up. 1. do I buy a cross over like DBX223xl, or do I buy a amp like crownxti2000 and use one channel for mains and one channel for sub and use its' onboard cross over?  any suggestions pros and cons?
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John Fiorello

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 01:18:43 pm »

Hi Russ!

I don't know if I'm reading this right, but your mains look like they go from 80 or 90 degrees at 1k to 30 degrees at 2k (vertical dispersion).  Your models don't show poor coverage in the first few rows, but that was my initial concern.  Are your older posts on the old board?  I'll go check them out for more detail if it's been addressed.


JF

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Michael Galica

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 02:21:41 pm »

Also I am trying to figure out the best way hook these up. 1. do I buy a cross over like DBX223xl, or do I buy a amp like crownxti2000 and use one channel for mains and one channel for sub and use its' onboard cross over?  any suggestions pros and cons?

The proposal didn't include amps or anything just speakers?  That's a little odd in my experience.  If it were me, I'd want to have at least three amp channels, one for the subs, one for the LF driver of the mains, and one for the HF driver.  But the best thing to do would be to talk to whoever gave the recommendation and see what they suggest to achieve the coverage they've modeled for you.

Also, don't be surprised if you get a large number of people chiming in with things like "don't install them yourself unless you happen to be a qualified rigger and the plan was stamped by a licensed structural engineer". 
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Mike Galica
Pastor
Holy Cross Lutheran Church

Brad Weber

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 02:50:37 pm »

I'm not sure if you were looking for comments on the proposal in general, the prediction information or both.  So I'll assume both.

In general, that seems like a reasonable system approach.  I agree with John that the large difference in the vertical pattern of the CPL42-94 between 1kHz and 2kHz does not seem to be reflected in the results, however that may be due to seeing only the direct coverage of the listeners and not how that variation may be affecting the sound hitting the walls, ceilings or stage.

Are the EASE model and predictions something a consultant, contractor or dealer created for you or something you created?  Some purely generic comments are to make sure that interference is turned on for the predictions, in EASE one button click determines whether or not the predictions include interference between multiple speakers or not and in some cases that can make a significant difference in the results.  Also, while predicting the direct levels is important and having good coverage for the direct levels is critical to achieving a good overall result, it is good to also look at ALCONS, STI and D/R ratio predictions that assess the impact of the indirect sound and the resulting intelligibility.  Think of it this way, does it matter if everyone hears the same thing if no one understands what it is?  And last, it seems that the audience areas are predicted but not the 'stage' area.  I personally always include the stage or platform areas in modeling in order to see what is happening where the microphones will be located, you don't want to find out later that the highest levels in the room turn out to be right where the pastor normally stands.  I would be a bit concerned about that here as it looks like at 250Hz there is a 'hot spot' that may extend onto the middle of the platform area.

To be fair, predicting the indirect sound components and intelligibility takes more time not just in the actual prediction computations but also with sufficiently modeling the entire room and related finishes.  It is typically not something a Contractor can 'throw in' as part of an equipment sale and is instead a design effort that may require compensation.  But it is also where the much of the value in predictive modeling correlating to the actual results can be gained.
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Russ Buck

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 03:40:45 pm »

Brad these were done by the Technical Applications Engineer for Community loudspeaker co. 
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Brian Ehlers

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 06:22:30 pm »

.... I would be a bit concerned about that here as it looks like at 250Hz there is a 'hot spot' that may extend onto the middle of the platform area.
I'll echo this concern.  This is a common problem when you have a central cluster arranged horizontally with the pulpit pretty much directly below it.  Almost all loudspeakers have very little directionality at 250 Hz and below, so all three in the cluster get summed full-force on the floor below them.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the cluster as proposed, but you can expect to have to take some measures to clear up the mud in the 200 - 300 Hz range.  You can cut some of this out on the affected mic channel EQs.  Another good approach is to use a little delay between the speakers in the cluster to steer the lobe away from the stage.

The success of your system will be highly dependent on having a qualified engineer tune it.  You really don't want to skip this step;  it's more important (in my opinion) than some of the up-front work you're doing right now.  Of course, if you're going to ask someone to tune the system, you should also involve him in the up-front work -- both for his sake and yours.
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DonSneed

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2011, 07:50:04 pm »

Russ have you looked at the OAP Audio C-1.5....I use these a lot in churches, it has a 15" wloofer, a 1" coaxle 60x30 long throw horn & a second horn under the cabinet for near field short throw horn 90x40, the cabinet has two L-pads to level out the highs. The long throw is aim for the middle to rear seating & the short throw horn is aimed for the front row to middle seating area. Add two low profile subs.....the sound coverage is great....
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Brad Weber

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2011, 08:26:14 am »

Russ have you looked at the OAP Audio C-1.5....I use these a lot in churches, it has a 15" wloofer, a 1" coaxle 60x30 long throw horn & a second horn under the cabinet for near field short throw horn 90x40, the cabinet has two L-pads to level out the highs. The long throw is aim for the middle to rear seating & the short throw horn is aimed for the front row to middle seating area. Add two low profile subs.....the sound coverage is great....
I used OAP C series speakers some 20-25 years ago.  If you notice, there is no overall directionality data provided for the C Series and the EASE data requires you to treat the main coax and the 'short throw' horn as two separate devices.  This reflects the challenge with the concept as how the two horns interact and the resulting pattern and response are dependent on the aiming of the bottom 'short throw' horn.  You could have significant overlap and combfiltering or you might have a significant gap.  So an interesting concept but one for which the performance and result is unfortunately difficult to predict without modeling.
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DonSneed

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 06:57:56 pm »

I never had a problem with the OAP C series, I aimed the long throw HF for the center to rear seating with pink noise & a Ivie IE35 RTA/SPL meter using the tilt of the cabinet. After I get the long throw aimed & where I need it, I cut off the long throw horn & turn on the second horn & aimed for the front pew to the middle, I can tell the leading edge of the HF beam from the trailing edge of the long throw HF beam...Overlap, maybe 1-pew, can't tell it, my DB in most rooms is .8-1.5dbc from front to back, side to side... I use 2-3 or 4 C-1.5 cabinets. I get great coverage & tone quality from these speakers, I really like the second horn, this what make this speaker system work. I install JBL, OAP, EAW, I like them all....
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chuck clark

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 02:23:13 pm »

Hi Russ, My initial thoughts are:
I see lots of plaster and hardwood. The midrange bounce is gonna be significant in there. Resonant nodes will build up pretty quickly on you at anything much beyond mid-level volumes.
The complex shape and angles of the ceiling will help break things up nicely.
Hope you have nice plush carpet. That will help.
No shields in front of drums? Good luck.
No sonex behind drums? Good luck.
Aim speakers at ears in seats, not on side or back walls to minimize reflected energy levels.
Hang looks tall enough that previously mentioned 250hz region buildup on stage shouldn't be too bad.
Can probly be fixed w/ a dab of EQ.
Nice charts. What software is that? Wonder if it allows for reflected field resonances? (Rarely the case)
Happy sailing
Chuck
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Brad Weber

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Re: Church speakers proposal
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2011, 03:50:00 pm »

No sonex behind drums? Good luck.
If you mean acoustic absorption in a generic sense, then I agree that would help.  If you mean Sonex as a brand then I disagree as there are numerous, including many less expensive, other options.  :)

Hang looks tall enough that previously mentioned 250hz region buildup on stage shouldn't be too bad.
Can probly be fixed w/ a dab of EQ.
I have to disgree on this.  As far as using equaliztion to fix it, the summation is acoustic and you can't equalize it out, all you can do with EQ is to reduce the level of the source at that frequency.  However, any change you make to the source response will effect everywhere the speaker covers and not just where the levels are higher.  You could put a big notch at 250Hz to reduce the levels mid stage relative to other frequencies, but you'd also be reducing the 250Hz levels everywhere else, which may not be desired.  So you could vary the array height or the equalization but all you'd likely do is vary the levels everywhere without making much difference in the levels on stage relative to the levels in the audience.  And that is what is a concern in terms of gain before feedback.

Nice charts. What software is that? Wonder if it allows for reflected field resonances? (Rarely the case)
I'm not sure what you mean by "reflected field resonances" but those look very much like screen captures from EASE and EASE can include the effects of device and/or room interaction.  What is shown is identified as being the Direct Sound, so it is displaying only the direct sound component and not the effect of the room.  It is not possible to tell for sure from the information shown if interference sum is on or not.
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