ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down

Author Topic: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?  (Read 5305 times)

Richard Vasseur

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« on: January 28, 2011, 04:57:59 am »

Hi !!

I've been lurking on this board for years but never posted before.

I'm setting up a modern soft jazz band:
- female singer, soft voice (think Melody Gardot)
- drummer (think Joey Baron)
- guitar (think Bill Frisell)
- keys (Rhodes, electric piano)
- fretless electric bass

We are planning to not use amps on stage, everybody DIed to the PA.
Bass and keys will go DI, guitar will use an AxeFX direct.
Very low stage volume is the goal.

We plan to play small lounge clubs, essentially as background music, so we do not need / plan high SPLs.

When we play bigger stages, we will have access to big PAs along with soundmen.

So: we need to buy a PA for rehearsals and small clubs (attendance: 10-50).
Portability & budget control are our main concerns.
Max budget is 2500 (USD 3500). This must include amplified monitors, a mixing table, stands & a case for the mixing table.

Do you reckon a pair of powered 12" monitors would do the job?
I was thinking of a pair of FBT Verve 12MA (I live in France so these can be had at a good price here, since they're made in Italy).

I'll also need a small mixer.
It'd be great if the mixer had effets included (we'll need reverb for the vocals).
Even greater if it had built-in compression (for vocals & bass).

I was thinking maybe a YAMAHA MG 166CX could do? (8 MIC/Line inputs, a compressor knob on those inputs, built-in FX etc.)

Many thanks for your recommandation !!

Richard Vasseur
Saverdun, France.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 05:04:23 am by Haslar »
Logged

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1404
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 06:24:46 am »

Your jazz band isn't going to need much for the 10-50 seat venues you talk about.  A pair if powered mains and one or two powered monitors will serve twice that, easily.

I'm not familiar with the speaks you mentioned; they may be great.  I would recommend that if they are in your price range, and available, you check into the QSC K10 and QSC K12 speakers - sound great, and are popular here (whatever that's worth).  Very clean and articulate for the jazz group.  A-B compare them with your suggestion, and see what fits best for you.

I use the A&H MixWiz3 16:2 and find it to be a very versatile mixer - decent effects; no compression, though.  I'm not sure of the quality if the comps on the Yamaha - evaluate whether you really need compression for the sound you want, and the venue sizes you're playing.  You can always add a known-good compressor as an add-on, too...

In the states, you could pick up two K12 and two K10 for about $2200us and an A&H Mix Wiz3 16:2 for around a grand, keeping within your budget.  Again, these are things I use and are happy with - the Yamaha board may do well - A-B compare things and make your move.

Sounds like fun!

frank
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 06:31:40 am by frank kayser »
Logged

Richard Vasseur

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 08:10:46 am »

Franck: many thanks for your informative reply!
I really do appreciate.

It is my understanding that the QSC K-series speakers and the FBT are very close cousins - they sound pretty much alike and pretty much do the same things.

I already have a powered monitor (lower-end though, an Audiophony 8MA) that can be used for onstage monitoring.

I had checked out the MixWiz 3 16:2 - that looks like a great pice of kit, but I'm concerned about it being a bit overkill for my needs (6 Auxes, 16 inputs, and $1350 over here).
Logged

Ned Ward

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1353
  • Redondo Beach, CA
    • Our band's page on Facebook
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 10:31:18 am »

You should be fine; at the stage volumes you're talking about it may not be an issue.


However, with no amps at all, you will need to provide more monitors since now there's no amp for the drummer to hear or the bass player. Depending on whether or not the band moves around a lot, in-ear monitors with wired packs may serve better and be similar in cost, but weight savings could be significant. I don't know what the used gear market is over in france, but over here I've had good luck with used powered Mackie SRM450s, buying them used and 1/2 of what new ones cost with no problems.


We have 2 QSC HPR 122i's for mains for our small band and are starting to look at IEMs for our lead singer and drummer; I have been using the Rolls PM55s headphone amp as a RPMIEMR (Really Poor Man's IEM Rig) out of my 01v.the K10's are great boxes and we will probably buy 2 for floor monitors. They're also very light, which makes for nice setup and teardown at the end of the night.




The Mixwiz is great and with 6 auxes, you'll find that you may need more than 1 monitor mix for the band, depending on levels. For an analog console that you're doing monitors, I'd say 6 is the minimum, since you'll want to add effects at some point. On a digital, 4 would probably be the minimum aux channels given your band size. For us we use these mixes (rock, but same band size)
Mix 1 - Lead singer mix. Lots and lots of her, some guitar/keyboards for pitch.
Mix 2 - Guitar/Bass mix with vocals - I share with my bass player and it works; we also have low-wattage amps that we can hear, but we keep the stage volume down considerably.
Mix 3 - Keyboards mix - his vocals, keyboards, and guitar/POD for those songs
Mix 4 - Drum mix




I have an older Yamaha 01v, and for our small band and the bars/clubs we play in, having built-in parametric EQ on every channel, aux and main, dynamics and effects on every channel and 4 assignable outs made me sell my Mackie 1642, dbx compressor, Lexicon Reverb and SPX90; setup is a lot faster and easier now.


Much to think about.
Logged

Richard Vasseur

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 10:59:53 am »

Ned: thanks for the info !

You're obviously right about ading monitors.

However, I was thinking that maybe we can use our mains as monitors, provided we place them behind the band.
I know this is far from ideal, as the vocal mic might get into feedback, but is it a reasonable solution provided we don't play loud?
Logged

frank kayser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1404
  • Maryland suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 11:19:48 am »

Richard,
I've seen mains behind being used as monitors - it can, and has been done. Gain before feedback would be quite low - appropriate for the small 10 folk venue you speak of - maybe for something a little larger.  You'll find the limits quickly enough.  Anything you do, such as putting the speakers farther out on the wings, would give you more sound in the mains, but be much less useful as monitors - especially once the crossover kicks in for the high freqencies.

frank
Logged

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6559
  • Audio Plumber
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 12:47:29 pm »

Ned: thanks for the info !

You're obviously right about ading monitors.

However, I was thinking that maybe we can use our mains as monitors, provided we place them behind the band.
I know this is far from ideal, as the vocal mic might get into feedback, but is it a reasonable solution provided we don't play loud?

Since adding PA for all the instruments is going to add costs, bigger mixer, more mics, more monitors, why aren't they using amps? Small amps for the piano, bass, and guitar, and let the drums play acoustically. I think in a small venue, having the individual instrument source be the individual instrument rather than the PA is a much better idea. A jazz band should know how to play together.  I would just get a small PA for the vocalist, and one monitor for her. The rest of the band will hear her vocals from her monitor, and they will hear each other acoustically, just like jazz bands have been doing for 100 years.

Mac
Logged

Ned Ward

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1353
  • Redondo Beach, CA
    • Our band's page on Facebook
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 08:00:26 pm »

Excellent point Mac. I usually have a 20 watt Princeton Reverb and our bass player has a small Ampeg B50R combo amp - not loud at all, but helps vs. trying to hear everything in the monitors - you then end up with the challenge that your monitors may be louder than your mains...

Logged

Arjan van Gog

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 04:29:34 am »

I was thinking of a pair of FBT Verve 12MA (I live in France so these can be had at a good price here, since they're made in Italy).

I don't know what you pay in France but I live in the Netherlands and I got my FBT speakers at a price far below what any local dealer could offer from these guys in Italy:

http://www.italiastrumentimusicali.com/Scheda.asp?txtRic=fbt&idCat=0&idSta=0&idProd=973
(link to your FBT 12MA's for just EUR 611 including VAT).

Shipping is very reasonable too: I paid EUR 100 for 2x FBT10sa and 2x FBTMaxX4a, that's over 100kg shipping weight.

Good luck,
Arjan
Logged

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 07:12:50 am »

Since adding PA for all the instruments is going to add costs, bigger mixer, more mics, more monitors, why aren't they using amps? Small amps for the piano, bass, and guitar, and let the drums play acoustically. I think in a small venue, having the individual instrument source be the individual instrument rather than the PA is a much better idea. A jazz band should know how to play together.  I would just get a small PA for the vocalist, and one monitor for her. The rest of the band will hear her vocals from her monitor, and they will hear each other acoustically, just like jazz bands have been doing for 100 years.

Mac

Exaclty. Plus the thought of a jazz band without a mix on stage just screams "no feeling. no expression" as loud as one can scream.
 
If you have to hear the vocalist through a monitor than a pair of 15" boxes on poles behind the band and as far left/right as possible will work fine at the levels your going to work at. As a matter of fact I routinely put a pair of 722s for vocals behind my band in smaller clubs with levels of 110db at 50 feet and have no issues at all.
 
The real point is box count and budget though and you'll have a much nicer sound with much more feeling if you use the voice of the instrument on stage, obtain the correct mix and levels on stage, then use the PA / FOH for vocals only. You may or may not even need a monitor(s) and a small 12 channel board of good quality will do the job just fine.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Is a pair on amplified 12" monitors enough for my jazz band?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 07:12:50 am »


Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.047 seconds with 24 queries.