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Author Topic: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!  (Read 8020 times)

Todd Pitts

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6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« on: August 17, 2011, 03:08:57 am »

Hello all.  I posted this in the wrong forum earlier and hope this is the correct one.  Any suggestions/assistance you may have is appreciated.

I have a scenario I need some assistance with if you will indulge me.  I am a member of a 6 piece band that has a couple small tours scheduled. On several of the routing stops we will be providing our own sound which is a first for me with a project of this scope.  Venues are inside and out with roughly 200 people per. Here is what I have to work with.

    * A&E MW3 16:2
      2 channel 32 freq EQ with dedicated sub out
      3 - JBL PRX535
      2 - QSC HPR181i
      1 - Lexicon MX200
      1 - BBE 482i
      1 - Behringer  MDX4600
      1 - Behringer EP2500
      5 - Wireless IEM systems
*


We need to be able to flush out 6 independent monitor mixers if possible with this set up. I could spend a couple hundred bucks if needed but don't want to go much beyond that. I have been racking my brain and think..... I may have a scenario that will work. Here goes:

Use all 6 aux channels for monitor mixes. Send aux 6 to PRX535 for drummer others to EIM transmitters.
Pan vocals left and go out the left master to the lexicon and back in through ST5 left.
Pan kick, bass, keys etc right and go out the right master to the EQ channel 1 then BBE CH1 then subs thus using similar to an aux fed sub system.
Use the "M" fader as the master with summed left and right out to EQ channel 2 then BBE CH2 then the main PRX 535s.

Is this a viable scenario? Given the gear is there a better way? Using inserts, direct outs....? Am I missing something?

Any and all assistance is appreciated.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 03:51:31 am »

If you use all of your aux sends for monitors what will you use for effects or other outboard gear if needed. I might question why you need that many monitors or IEMs in the first place based on the size venues you're going to play. 200 people is not a large venue and unless everyone is doing something with vocals this may be a case of overkill. You might also be better suited to using 3,4 wedges properly placed where needed most. You could also look into another small board and use that for monitors. Myself? I would look towards the floor wedges first and save the money used for IEMs for something else like maybe a more capable board.
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Robert Weston

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 07:07:43 am »

Yep - 6 monitor mixes is too much.  Not everyone in the band needs their own mix; that just adds other issues and more complexity (hence the reason for your post!)  Determine who needs to listen to about the same content and put those people on one mix; do the same for the other band members. 

As a side note, it may be best NOT to use a BBE in the final output stage.  You're already using it for for some channels early on.  That's a bit too much "processing" and I'm sure it already sounds overly processed.  If you are relying on the BBE to get some type of "sound" out of your system, you may need look at the overall setup/gain structure/EQ'ing of the entire system.  BBE units may be ok for certain things, but the way it is being used in your system sort of raises a red-flag with how your system is configured.
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 09:48:51 am »

Hello all.  I posted this in the wrong forum earlier and hope this is the correct one.  Any suggestions/assistance you may have is appreciated.

I have a scenario I need some assistance with if you will indulge me.  I am a member of a 6 piece band that has a couple small tours scheduled. On several of the routing stops we will be providing our own sound which is a first for me with a project of this scope.  Venues are inside and out with roughly 200 people per. Here is what I have to work with.

    * A&E MW3 16:2
      2 channel 32 freq EQ with dedicated sub out
      3 - JBL PRX535
      2 - QSC HPR181i
      1 - Lexicon MX200
      1 - BBE 482i
      1 - Behringer  MDX4600
      1 - Behringer EP2500
      5 - Wireless IEM systems
*


We need to be able to flush out 6 independent monitor mixers if possible with this set up. I could spend a couple hundred bucks if needed but don't want to go much beyond that. I have been racking my brain and think..... I may have a scenario that will work. Here goes:

Use all 6 aux channels for monitor mixes. Send aux 6 to PRX535 for drummer others to EIM transmitters.
Pan vocals left and go out the left master to the lexicon and back in through ST5 left.
Pan kick, bass, keys etc right and go out the right master to the EQ channel 1 then BBE CH1 then subs thus using similar to an aux fed sub system.
Use the "M" fader as the master with summed left and right out to EQ channel 2 then BBE CH2 then the main PRX 535s.

Is this a viable scenario? Given the gear is there a better way? Using inserts, direct outs....? Am I missing something?

Any and all assistance is appreciated.


I would think having everyone on IEM's would be a good idea for smaller shows to help keep the stage volume down and simplify setup. I kinda like no wedges on stage. There's going to be some trade off's though.

For 5 mixes/6 IEM's, you can get just a body pack and tune it to the same frequency as somebody else, but they will both have the same mix, and aux 5 will be post fader. Or you can move the enternal jumpers to make 5 & 6 pre fader for 6 IEM's. But then you will not have an aux for effects. I've sometimes used the mono out for an IEM mix before, but it's post channel and main faders. You can also come out of the A/B for a post fader stereo mix.

I don't think I would have 5 on IEM's and 1 on a wedge.

If this mixer is always going to be used for IEM's I would move the enternal jumpers to pre fader/post EQ.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 11:47:25 am by Jamin Lynch »
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Garry Wilson

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 10:53:04 am »

Hello all.  I posted this in the wrong forum earlier and hope this is the correct one.  Any suggestions/assistance you may have is appreciated.

I have a scenario I need some assistance with if you will indulge me.  I am a member of a 6 piece band that has a couple small tours scheduled. On several of the routing stops we will be providing our own sound which is a first for me with a project of this scope.  Venues are inside and out with roughly 200 people per. Here is what I have to work with.

    * A&E MW3 16:2
      2 channel 32 freq EQ with dedicated sub out
      3 - JBL PRX535
      2 - QSC HPR181i
      1 - Lexicon MX200
      1 - BBE 482i
      1 - Behringer  MDX4600
      1 - Behringer EP2500
      5 - Wireless IEM systems
*


We need to be able to flush out 6 independent monitor mixers if possible with this set up. I could spend a couple hundred bucks if needed but don't want to go much beyond that. I have been racking my brain and think..... I may have a scenario that will work. Here goes:

Use all 6 aux channels for monitor mixes. Send aux 6 to PRX535 for drummer others to EIM transmitters.
Pan vocals left and go out the left master to the lexicon and back in through ST5 left.
Pan kick, bass, keys etc right and go out the right master to the EQ channel 1 then BBE CH1 then subs thus using similar to an aux fed sub system.
Use the "M" fader as the master with summed left and right out to EQ channel 2 then BBE CH2 then the main PRX 535s.

Is this a viable scenario? Given the gear is there a better way? Using inserts, direct outs....? Am I missing something?

Any and all assistance is appreciated.



I'll just focus on your IEM mix. Here's something I did, it works if your IEM system has two channels and the inputs have loop through connectors on the transmitters. The IEM should be capable of changing from stereo to mono, so that inputs 1 and 2 can be mixed and heard in both ears. The pan control now becomes your mix level between the two sources.

This really works great for vocals or anyone that uses only a single channel into the mixer.

Now to the the two sources. Lets use Aux 1 for what would be called a band mix, with everyone mixed as if it was going to a recording device.

You take aux 1 output and connect it to IEM transmitter #1, channel 1, then loop out of channel 1 to transmitter #2, channel 1, loop out into unit#3 and so on. This should not be used on the drummer or anyone else that uses more than one input on the mixer.

Now you take the direct out from the appropriate channel; let say you have 3 singers and they are on channels 11,12,13. Connect a TRS cable from the direct out chan 11 to the first singer's IEM transmitter on channel input #2. Now this singer has the Aux 1 band mix on IEM channel 1 and himself on channel 2, anytime he/she wants "more me" they rotate the pan control on the body pack more to the channel 2 side, continue same setup with remaining singers. You can do the same thing for an instrumentalist that does not sing and only uses one input to the mixer. The will save you some auxes, it is a compromise, but I used it successfully, until I got a mixer with more auxes. At the time I was using the GL2400-4 on a 10pc band, that has 4 singers. Here was my aux assignment

A1- Band mix
A2- Stage right wedge
A3- Stage left wedge
A4- Drummer/wired IEM
A5- Efx
A6- aux fed subs

Later I had some other creative stuff going on, but don't want to convolute the OP.

The other GREAT solution would be to buy the Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3-12M,16 Input Monitor Mixer.


Garry W.
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Geoff Doane

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 12:05:04 pm »

Yep - 6 monitor mixes is too much.  Not everyone in the band needs their own mix; that just adds other issues and more complexity (hence the reason for your post!)  Determine who needs to listen to about the same content and put those people on one mix; do the same for the other band members. 

And whatever you do, don't let them put a pillow in the bass drum!  How dare a musician make any decisions about the sound of his instrument.  :) (Sorry Robert, I couldn't resist.)

We are service providers in this business.  I don't think it is my place to tell a band that "they don't need" 6 monitor mixes, even if I do believe it myself.  I might need to explain to them that they will have to pony up some more cash if they want 6 mixes and effects.  That often brings people back to reality when they're spending their own money.

Garry's solution is a good example of thinking outside the box, and sounds like it could work.  My only concern is that it might be a bit confusing for the musicians to figure out, and they still can't have totally independant mixes.

If I had to make it work with the equipment at hand, I'd probably set all 6 auxes to pre fade, and use those as the monitor feeds.  The left output of the console would be the mono PA mix, and the right output would be a mono send to the single FX unit.  The FX unit would return to the console and only be routed to the left mix bus.  The pan controls then become the FX send for each channel.  It's not ideal of course.  The level in the main mix will drop slightly as the FX send is increased, and then drastically if you go beyond 12 o'clock, although you shouldn't have to go that far if the gains are set up properly.  The loss of gain would have to be compenstated for with the main fader.

There's no opportunity for aux fed subs with this setup.  You'll need a crossover downstream of the system EQ.

GTD

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Todd Pitts

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 01:37:33 pm »

Yep - 6 monitor mixes is too much.  Not everyone in the band needs their own mix; that just adds other issues and more complexity (hence the reason for your post!)  Determine who needs to listen to about the same content and put those people on one mix; do the same for the other band members. 

As a side note, it may be best NOT to use a BBE in the final output stage.  You're already using it for for some channels early on.  That's a bit too much "processing" and I'm sure it already sounds overly processed.  If you are relying on the BBE to get some type of "sound" out of your system, you may need look at the overall setup/gain structure/EQ'ing of the entire system.  BBE units may be ok for certain things, but the way it is being used in your system sort of raises a red-flag with how your system is configured.

@ Bob and Robert. Thanks for your help.

I agree that 6 mixes seems to be overkill and would like to reduce that for my own sanity.  With the exception of the drummer the other players are vocalists as well. All guitars, bass and keys go direct into the PA so everyone needs to hear their voice and instrument hotter in the mix. Wedges would be fine other then added weight, amps and using floor space I don't think we will have for these shows.

I might be able to get the drummer and bass player to share a mix though. That would seem to be the most logical to combine.

Signal chain noted. I will probably eliminate the bbe all together.
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Todd Pitts

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 01:47:58 pm »


I would think having everyone on IEM's would be a good idea for smaller shows to help keep the stage volume down and simplify setup. I kinda like no wedges on stage. There's going to be some trade off's though.

For 5 mixes/6 IEM's, you can get just a body pack and tune it to the same frequency as somebody else, but they will both have the same mix, and aux 5 will be post fader. Or you can move the enternal jumpers to make 5 & 6 pre fader for 6 IEM's. But then you will not have an aux for effects. I've sometimes used the mono out for an IEM mix before, but it's post channel and main faders. You can also come out of the A/B for a post fader stereo mix.

I don't think I would have 5 on IEM's and 1 on a wedge.

If this mixer is always going to be used for IEM's I would move the enternal jumpers to pre fader/post EQ.

So Jamie that's part of the reason we have the IEMs. It seems this is less about the IEMs and more about the desires/needs of the players. With the gear we have it just might not be possible to do what is desired. I'll give it my best shot and reevaluate accordingly.
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Todd Pitts

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 02:09:49 pm »



I'll just focus on your IEM mix. Here's something I did, it works if your IEM system has two channels and the inputs have loop through connectors on the transmitters. The IEM should be capable of changing from stereo to mono, so that inputs 1 and 2 can be mixed and heard in both ears. The pan control now becomes your mix level between the two sources.

This really works great for vocals or anyone that uses only a single channel into the mixer.

Now to the the two sources. Lets use Aux 1 for what would be called a band mix, with everyone mixed as if it was going to a recording device.

You take aux 1 output and connect it to IEM transmitter #1, channel 1, then loop out of channel 1 to transmitter #2, channel 1, loop out into unit#3 and so on. This should not be used on the drummer or anyone else that uses more than one input on the mixer.

Now you take the direct out from the appropriate channel; let say you have 3 singers and they are on channels 11,12,13. Connect a TRS cable from the direct out chan 11 to the first singer's IEM transmitter on channel input #2. Now this singer has the Aux 1 band mix on IEM channel 1 and himself on channel 2, anytime he/she wants "more me" they rotate the pan control on the body pack more to the channel 2 side, continue same setup with remaining singers. You can do the same thing for an instrumentalist that does not sing and only uses one input to the mixer. The will save you some auxes, it is a compromise, but I used it successfully, until I got a mixer with more auxes. At the time I was using the GL2400-4 on a 10pc band, that has 4 singers. Here was my aux assignment

A1- Band mix
A2- Stage right wedge
A3- Stage left wedge
A4- Drummer/wired IEM
A5- Efx
A6- aux fed subs

Later I had some other creative stuff going on, but don't want to convolute the OP.

The other GREAT solution would be to buy the Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3-12M,16 Input Monitor Mixer.


Garry W.

Much appreciated Garry! I think these suggestions are going help significantly. Everyone in the band has multiple inputs but I still see the light at the end of the tunnel. If I can persuade the 2 lead guitar players to share a basic they can then choose either to have their guitar or vocal routed from the direct out to their wireless unit. A compromise but one I'm willing to make :-).  That would free up one aux feed. Same thing with drummer and bass player and now we have 2 free auxes and mission accomplished.

Thanks again man.

Thanks again.
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Todd Pitts

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Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 02:23:58 pm »


If I had to make it work with the equipment at hand, I'd probably set all 6 auxes to pre fade, and use those as the monitor feeds.  The left output of the console would be the mono PA mix, and the right output would be a mono send to the single FX unit.  The FX unit would return to the console and only be routed to the left mix bus.  The pan controls then become the FX send for each channel.  It's not ideal of course.  The level in the main mix will drop slightly as the FX send is increased, and then drastically if you go beyond 12 o'clock, although you shouldn't have to go that far if the gains are set up properly.  The loss of gain would have to be compenstated for with the main fader.

There's no opportunity for aux fed subs with this setup.  You'll need a crossover downstream of the system EQ.

GTD

Thanks Jamin. If I am able to reduce the monitor mixes to 4 and then use aux 5 and 6 for effects, can I use the scenario you describe as a sort of sub bus? 

If not, will the sub woofer out (with adjustable crossover) on the Behringer FBQ3102 Ultragraph PRO suffice to break out the sub signal from the main?
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: 6 piece band...armed with a little knowledge....please help!
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 02:23:58 pm »


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