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[Kurt Stephens]

I will be doing a somewhat small sound and lighting install for a friend of mine's bar come this May. It is very important to me that I do things right the first time, and gain some rep as well not only with the owner but locally as well. This is my first real install.

Here are some of the details that bar owner specified (he knows little about audio):

Install type: Permanent as opposed to mobile
Budget: Max of $4,000 (he will not increase this, and won't like going over).
Lighting: Yes, mostly low-intensity wash lighting for small jazz bands.
Music: Mostly Jazz or solo players, "soft" music.
Detail: If he brings in a DJ or larger group he will tell them to bring their own system.
Area: 26ft by 60ft with the small stage in the corner. Bar island is centrally located on one side of wall extending outward into middle. Pool tables are on the other side of the bar island from the stage.

I have attached the floorplans.

#1 What additional questions do I need to ask him?

#2 How do I start approaching this install?

#3 What are some of your initial ideas? (do I need stage monitors, what kind of lighting, how do I cover the whole area, should I aim to cover the whole area, talent-accessible mixing boards etc...)

#4 What are things to definitely avoid in this situation?

Again, this is extremely important to me as it is my first real install and I do not want to disappoint. I will be posting this in multiple parts as I get closer to his due date and as I research more.

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[Paul Lipp]

I would keep this simple, no need for overkill in any area.

As for lighting, LEDs are sorta out of your budget, unless you want budget lights? Conventional par cans are inexpensive and will cover the area, however power may be a concern, and they give off a lot of heat... something to think about. Lighting could be controlled via a computer or simple dmx light controller.

Is there any existing sound that will be used? Are there mics and cables present, or is this a fresh install of the complete audio system? Are any tv's being incorporated into this system, or audio feed from existing video system.

I would write down the needs of the venue and work it from there..
What output level are you expecting, are you only building for jazz/solo or will it need to be capable of doing a small rock band, etc.
I would assume monitors are needed if you have any live music acts.

I would put a focus on power to ensure you have adaquite as well as if an outside provider comes in, they can connect their equipment in without tripping breakers.. Maybe have a contractor put in a dedicated disconnent and power connections on stage that are not tied into anything else but for stage power.

This seems like a pretty straight forward install.. other little things that come to my head are, how high is the stage, is it portable or permanent, cant you place anything below it if need be, what is ceiling height, and make up..

How are the acoustics? maybe it would be wise to focus on treating acoustic issues, instead of having to fight it, and future acts fighting it.. etc.

[Kurt Stephens]

These are tremendously helpful thoughts, thank you.

Lighting: I'm thinking two par cans via a small DMX controller located behind the bar. The computer controlled route might be a bit beyond their needs (or budget).

There is no existing sound whatsoever. There was a bar there previously with no sound except TVs. This is a fresh install. The TVs that will be put in do not need to have synchronicity with the sound system.

SPL requirements are low. Jazz and solo artists are the focus. He does not expect more than 3 people on average. If he does bring in a larger rock group/ higher SPL group then he will require them to provide their own sound.

Monitors are one of my biggest questions I guess. Just go with one? Maybe a single K8?

Power distribution will absolutely be a concern. I DJ at a bar regularly that has very poor power distribution and I know how frustrating it is. 20 amp three phase technically grounded etc... I will have to get more advice on this later since I am not an electrician.

Stage is not high - maybe 1ft or so. It is permanent and does not have space under it to store gear (but maybe some wires if things are done right).

Ceiling height was not specified yet, I will have to get that. The ceiling is exposed wood beams that can handle a heavy speaker sized load.

Acoustically I haven't been able to test anything out yet and may not get to (sadly) until very close to the install time (aka. when he plans to open his new bar). He wants the spec sheets with my recommended equipment before then.

[Kurt Stephens]

sound compliment-wise I'm tentatively thinking:

2x flown EAW FR129z's on a QSC PLX1804 for about $2000

does this leave enough room for lighting, power stuff, processing, cabling, mics/mixer (or even a monitor)? Not sure if it does.

[Ned Ward]

If you're asking these kinds of questions and don't understand power or have insurance and the knowledge on how to correctly fly ("hang") speakers safely, you should walk. If you'd like to remain friends with this owner, walk now and have him hire an experienced install contractor.


It's also a bit presumptuous to ask blindly the forum folks to do your job. If you have plans for the install, then feel free to suggest them and ask for comments, but don't ask for free consulting.


Again, based on the questions and paucity of responses, no one wants to touch this for a) liability; b) doing your job; c) both.

[ThomasKielhofner]

I have to agree with Ned; If you have some ideas and questions about them that's fine, but if you need a complete system designed you should really consult a local professional to handle it for you. I can give you some suggestions though.

I would look at something powered and simple for your main speakers, like a pair of K12's or K10's. You will want monitors, on your budget you could do something inexpensive like Yamaha BR series or similar and a small QSC or Crown amp to power them. A small rack mountable mixer would work well for low channel count shows like you describe, maybe the soundcraft mfxi series or allen & heath mix wiz. A small dmx show controller and four or five smaller american dj or chauvet par cans should take up whats left of your budget. That leaves you still needing mics, a rack for the mixer/amp, cables, power distribution, and whatever else I left out.

Like I said, from what it sounds like you should consult a local pro to handle the system design and install though. They would probably set up a package deal with you, and be able to give you a little bit of a discount on some of the product.

And when it comes to flying speakers don't just go buy some off the shelf hardware and use your handyman skills to hang speakers and lighting. This is where you really need to get a professional to do the work because you will be held liable if it falls.

[Kurt Stephens]

If you're asking these kinds of questions and don't understand power or have insurance and the knowledge on how to correctly fly ("hang") speakers safely, you should walk. If you'd like to remain friends with this owner, walk now and have him hire an experienced install contractor.


It's also a bit presumptuous to ask blindly the forum folks to do your job. If you have plans for the install, then feel free to suggest them and ask for comments, but don't ask for free consulting.


Again, based on the questions and paucity of responses, no one wants to touch this for a) liability; b) doing your job; c) both.

I do have commercial liability insurance. The plan was made for this type of matter. My family owns a Law firm - I understand this.

I am not an electrician and would consult those in the know for that matter.

I do not want anyone here to do my job - I am getting opinions on how other people would approach it and what questions they would ask. Remember this is my first job doing this so go easy. I'm aware that I can and may need to hire someone else.

The bar owner knows my limitations as well and his expectations are very low. My Law firm represents him and his bar.

I'd like to just throw some ideas around on what might work and what might not - thats the whole basis of a Forum.

[Ivan Beaver]

Have you priced in things like: Install labor-training on system operation-warranty (how are you going to cover costs for repairs/labor if something needs servicing)?

You are going to need mics, stands, DI's, cables etc etc.  Those can add up quickly.

I assume you have determined the coverage needs of the loudspeakers and are choosing them based on those needs.

[Brad Weber]

My Law firm represents him and his bar.

That could be interesting if there ever was any issue.

I'm surprised nobody has asked about the ceiling height and construction, but that would be useful to know.  And speaking of ceiling, are you looking at aspects such as whether you may need to use any plenum or riser rated cabling?

I would address the power issues right away.  It's not clear if there is an Architect involved but somebody is probably coordinating the design and creating construction documents, you want to make sure to coordinate with them as soon as practical.  If you come up with additions or changes late in the process you won't be making any friends and may not get what you want.

Just to reinforce Ivan's point, does your responsibility end when you walk out after installing everything or will you incur some ongoing responsibility and liability?  That may factor into your costs.  And since you want to do this right don't forget about things like labeling all the wires with that labeling reflected on the system drawings that you leave for the Owner.

By the time you account for the costs of not only the main equipment but also of all the associated cabling and cables, connectors, hardware, stands, an equipment rack an so on as well as anything for your effort and liability, will $4,000 cover providing something with which you'd want to be associated?  If you're willing to do this at a loss for the experience and reference or due to your friendship then that is a decision for you to make, but remember that any resulting references may be based on the belief that you could provide similar results for the same cost.  Otherwise, you may want to first consider the more fixed costs and see where that leaves you on the items and work that is more flexible.

[Kurt Stephens]

Have you priced in things like: Install labor-training on system operation-warranty (how are you going to cover costs for repairs/labor if something needs servicing)?

You are going to need mics, stands, DI's, cables etc etc.  Those can add up quickly.

I assume you have determined the coverage needs of the loudspeakers and are choosing them based on those needs.

Comments much appreciated.

training isn't really to necessary since it will pretty much be one of two people using it. If something needs servicing the cost is covered by the owner. When I am done, it's all his.

Things are definitely going to add up quickly, but he really isn't asking much of this system. I've made him aware that his $4K might not go very far.

Directivity has been considered.

Let it be known that at one point he said to me "hey just pick out some JBLs an amp and a mic for me" His standards are very low and he has no clue what a real professional level install entails. I think anything more than some junk speakers and a mic would please him. Of course, I've got to be thinking beyond just him.

[Kurt Stephens]

That could be interesting if there ever was any issue.

I'm surprised nobody has asked about the ceiling height and construction, but that would be useful to know.  And speaking of ceiling, are you looking at aspects such as whether you may need to use any plenum or riser rated cabling?

I would address the power issues right away.  It's not clear if there is an Architect involved but somebody is probably coordinating the design and creating construction documents, you want to make sure to coordinate with them as soon as practical.  If you come up with additions or changes late in the process you won't be making any friends and may not get what you want.

Just to reinforce Ivan's point, does your responsibility end when you walk out after installing everything or will you incur some ongoing responsibility and liability?  That may factor into your costs.  And since you want to do this right don't forget about things like labeling all the wires with that labeling reflected on the system drawings that you leave for the Owner.

By the time you account for the costs of not only the main equipment but also of all the associated cabling and cables, connectors, hardware, stands, an equipment rack an so on as well as anything for your effort and liability, will $4,000 cover providing something with which you'd want to be associated?  If you're willing to do this at a loss for the experience and reference or due to your friendship then that is a decision for you to make, but remember that any resulting references may be based on the belief that you could provide similar results for the same cost.  Otherwise, you may want to first consider the more fixed costs and see where that leaves you on the items and work that is more flexible.

I have not looked at cabling ratings. I will add that to my notes.

The bar has already been built quite a while ago. It is simply under his new ownership, but there was no audio of any kind before he got there. I don;t know when the place was built buy I imagine more than 10 years ago. There really won't be many other people to deal with other than hiring an electrician and of course the legal side of things (which is covered by us anyway).

My responsibility will end after I walk out.

Your last paragraph is a great one and it is a serious consideration. Again, given that this is my first install I think I'm going to have to just try to do my best on it. The standards are very very low and ultimately I am not making a living (by any means) doing professional sound installs.

Thanks for your input as well - I rethink over all of this stuff.

[Taylor Phillips]

With such a tight budget constraint and the desire for quality you have, I think you should design the system to be added to and expanded easily.  Right now, I think you only need one PA speaker, but you should run cable for a second.  I'd say even run cable for distributed speaker in the farther part of the venue as well.  A couple stage monitors are good to have, but there are a lot of musicians, and the groups like you say would be playing here, who are used to playing without them, especially in small venues.  If you don't get any, still run cable for them.  Another thing to consider, as someone mentioned earlier, is the acoustics of the space.  With jazz ensembles, I think you might want the space to be a bit more live than one that features mostly rock bands.  I don't have enough experience to recommend anything, but I know that different materials will make the space sound better/worse aside from the reverb time.  Anyway, here's a quick list of things to get started with would be (prices from memory):

1 QSC K10 - $700
1 Allen & Heath ZED-12FX mixer - $500
1 Sennheiser e835 3-pack - $250
3 Whirlwind IMP2 DI boxes - $40/each - $120
3 Mic stands - $30/each - $90
10 15' XLR cables for the stage - $15/each - $150
3 2-input XLR wall plates - $15/each - $45

That's close to just $1800 but it doesn't include the power, installed audio cabling, lighting etc. since I don't know much about that.  You might be able to get some package deals on some things, look at B-stock stuff for the pricier gear and get the price lower.  This still may not get you what you want/need.  I put the ZED up there since you're pretty sure that only small ensembles are going to play there, but they may get big, in which case the ZED won't cut it for you.  What you might want to do is install the speaker(s) and cabling and see what kind of acts are booked before you buy the mixer.  I would probably install more than the six stage inputs that I have up there, since that number is just to match the number of mic inputs on the ZED.

[Ned Ward]

Kurt - thanks for the replies. May come off as gruff, but this topic has been covered to death in the old PSW forms, which you can still google search and will give you a lot of similar responses.

setting up bar PA site:srforums.prosoundweb.com

I do have commercial liability insurance. The plan was made for this type of matter.

Your liability insurance covers you to do installs in a friend's bar, including hanging speakers, lights? What happens (god forbid) if a speaker you hung falls on someone and it wasn't hung correctly? This is serious stuff which is why I recommended walking, especially if you're friends with the guy.

My family owns a Law firm - I understand this. My Law firm represents him and his bar.

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems like it could get odd and again you don't want your friendship to sour. Since your family is in the legal business, before doing any work, get things in writing so your liability is limited.

I am not an electrician and would consult those in the know for that matter.

Good reading on this in the PSW as well - have an electrician come in and do that work for you - don't consult and try to do it yourself, because again you open yourself up to liability.

I do not want anyone here to do my job - I am getting opinions on how other people would approach it and what questions they would ask. Remember this is my first job doing this so go easy. I'm aware that I can and may need to hire someone else.

And that's great; in your original post you're asking for total suggestions and it seemed you were asking for free work; many of the people who haunt these forums are professionals and get paid for that kind of work on installs.

 In the past, PSW forum posts asking for that broad of an answer were smacked down pretty quickly. Read the old forums, do some homework, and then come back with what you think works.

What most people will say is hire an installation contractor and have them at least down to the site to look at and estimate what is truly needed. It may be $150, but having someone who does this for a living tell you how to make it better in person will be way better than forum posters suggesting speakers based off a very rough drawing. That cost may also be refunded or put towards the installation if you go with that person, who may be able to get better than retail pricing and will also buy the right gear for the room.

I'd like to just throw some ideas around on what might work and what might not - thats the whole basis of a Forum.

Yes, but you need to start by throwing your ideas around first vs. asking for people to do your work for you -- that's the whole basis of this forum.

[Brad Weber]

Anyway, here's a quick list of things to get started with would be (prices from memory):

1 QSC K10 - $700
1 Allen & Heath ZED-12FX mixer - $500
1 Sennheiser e835 3-pack - $250
3 Whirlwind IMP2 DI boxes - $40/each - $120
3 Mic stands - $30/each - $90
10 15' XLR cables for the stage - $15/each - $150
3 2-input XLR wall plates - $15/each - $45

That's close to just $1800 but it doesn't include the power, installed audio cabling, lighting etc. since I don't know much about that.  You might be able to get some package deals on some things, look at B-stock stuff for the pricier gear and get the price lower.

Those numbers are the equipment prices, but consider that they don't reflect the time spent ordering the equipment, receiving it and storing it until installation, transporting it to the site, installing it or supporting it.  And also no profit for you.  Also, the warranty on items you purchase for which you are not an authorized dealer may be with you and not transferable to the bar Owner, in which case either they get no warranty or you are potentially involved for some time after the installation is complete.

[Kurt Stephens]

I think you should design the system to be added to and expanded easily.  Right now, I think you only need one PA speaker, but you should run cable for a second.  I'd say even run cable for distributed speaker in the farther part of the venue as well.

Thank you for the recommendation - I guess the argument would be that the owner might not like having a partially incomplete PA - and since this is his grand opening he might want to attract attention right off the bat. I will see what his opinion on this is though.

[Kurt Stephens]

this topic has been covered to death in the old PSW forms, which you can still google search and will give you a lot of similar responses.

Thank for the link - I will look into that.

I also appreciate that this forum is very realistic (why I brought issue up here). It would be a disservice to say - "oh yeah this install will be easy for you just get a few x's y's and z's"

I think it is time for me to go back to the drawing board and talk to the owner about some of these issues. I will report back with a Part 2 Thread eventually once I get more specifics. One thing I do have right now is some time to sort through things - since he doesn't need the install completed until May 20 (grand opening).

[Kurt Stephens]

Those numbers are the equipment prices, but consider that they don't reflect the time spent ordering the equipment, receiving it and storing it until installation, transporting it to the site, installing it or supporting it.  And also no profit for you.  Also, the warranty on items you purchase for which you are not an authorized dealer may be with you and not transferable to the bar Owner, in which case either they get no warranty or you are potentially involved for some time after the installation is complete.

The owner's credit card will be used and things will be purchased in his name (thus having the warranty himself). He is also responsible for the upkeep of it.

[Ned Ward]

Other costs that should be considered is acoustic treatment. Especially if jazz or quiet music is planned; spending 1/2 or more of your $4,000 budget on sound treatment could make it sound infinitely better and prevent problems. Again, there's a forum here for sound treatment, but it's also great for consultants to come in, hear the space and hear the problems and then suggest treatment. Since it's a public place, it also needs to be fire-rated, unlike the home stuff.

[Brad Weber]

Again, there's a forum here for sound treatment, but it's also great for consultants to come in, hear the space and hear the problems and then suggest treatment. Since it's a public place, it also needs to be fire-rated, unlike the home stuff.

Unfortunately, the only acoustics forum here is in the R/E/P Section and is focused on studio acoustics rather than live performance venue or large room acoustics.  As you note, when dealing with public assembly spaces versus home studios and with installed systems versus portable systems there are potentially important differences not just technically but also in terms of things that like code compliance and common construction techniques.

[Taylor Phillips]

Thank you for the recommendation - I guess the argument would be that the owner might not like having a partially incomplete PA - and since this is his grand opening he might want to attract attention right off the bat. I will see what his opinion on this is though.

I wouldn't say I was recommending installing an incomplete system; just that because of your budget constraints you should think in phases. Phase 1 can handle a small jazz duo or trio, phase 2 a larger jazz group, phase 3 can handle a full on rock band etc.  I think a lot of places end up with poor systems because they buy more components as time goes by and money comes in, but they didn't have plan from the beginning and everything comes together in a haphazard afterthought kind of way.  I'm saying you should plan the additions now so that doesn't happen.  Planning is a lot cheaper than fixing.

[Kurt Stephens]

I wouldn't say I was recommending installing an incomplete system; just that because of your budget constraints you should think in phases. Phase 1 can handle a small jazz duo or trio, phase 2 a larger jazz group, phase 3 can handle a full on rock band etc.  I think a lot of places end up with poor systems because they buy more components as time goes by and money comes in, but they didn't have plan from the beginning and everything comes together in a haphazard afterthought kind of way.  I'm saying you should plan the additions now so that doesn't happen.  Planning is a lot cheaper than fixing.

I think that is a very intelligent approach to this - thank you. I will look into these possibilities and eventually might start a "part 2" to address specifics with things like this.

[Ned Ward]

Another thought - what do other bars in the area have? May be best to specialize and make it the best jazz/solo bar experience out there if everyone else has a rock band PA/bar. I do like the idea of phases to the investment; the challenge is the initial investment (power, cabling, trunks, acoustic treatment) isn't the sexy stuff that shows, but done right, allows for great expansion down the line.

[Ned Ward]

Unfortunately, the only acoustics forum here is in the R/E/P Section and is focused on studio acoustics rather than live performance venue or large room acoustics.  As you note, when dealing with public assembly spaces versus home studios and with installed systems versus portable systems there are potentially important differences not just technically but also in terms of things that like code compliance and common construction techniques.

Brad - thanks for clarifying. Was trying to keep people at least on this forum but hadn't gone too in depth on that specific section since I have a home studio and found some threads interesting, but didn't see any on live room treatment.

We've all been in bars where sound bounces around; this may be a good time to see how to tame that from the start and in some cases will make those initial investments in gear work better/harder for the money.

[ProSoundWeb Community]