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Author Topic: Bag End System?  (Read 11365 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 07:28:48 am »

You can also purchase these cabinets and sell off the mid box, crossover, and any other crap that's part of that and run with just the 12s above the 18" subs using an Ashly 1001 crossover or equal. I'll put money on the system sounding pretty damn good configured like that, let alone more easily set up and maintained over all.
Why keep the subs but get rid of the integrator?  Based on the information on Bag End's web site, peak output on the S18E-C subs is 122dB at 80Hz while their response is something like 10dB down at 40Hz, for which a simple crossover is not going to apply the compensation that is part of the Bag End integrator.  However, as already noted, even with the integrator the subs' output is still going to be rather limited. 
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 11:33:39 am »

You can also purchase these cabinets and sell off the mid box, crossover, and any other crap that's part of that and run with just the 12s above the 18" subs using an Ashly 1001 crossover or equal. I'll put money on the system sounding pretty damn good configured like that, let alone more easily set up and maintained over all.
Why keep the subs but get rid of the integrator?  Based on the information on Bag End's web site, peak output on the S18E-C subs is 122dB at 80Hz while their response is something like 10dB down at 40Hz, for which a simple crossover is not going to apply the compensation that is part of the Bag End integrator.  However, as already noted, even with the integrator the subs' output is still going to be rather limited.

I made that statement based on my own experience. Keep in mind that this was many years ago when just about everything was a 300 watt cabinet at best. The Bag End crossover was tried at first, as where a number of other crossovers during the initial purchase. There were no perceived benefits in the output or sound with the Bag End device so I went with an Ashley 1001 as I felt the sound quality was better than other xovers I listened to including Bag Ends own. I eventually moved to the 2001 as I scaled the system larger. I have to say that overall the Bag End experience was a good one. Their speakers are high quality, and sound great. Their drivers are either Eminence or EV depending on model. Finally, the DRC series crosses nicely at around 100hz and if driven properly is fairly flat down to about 30hz, at least according to measuements I made all those years ago.
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Mika Filpus

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 03:30:23 pm »


What would be good replacement for original drivers? I have a pair of S18E from '97or something and I'm having a bit rattle sometimes.
Nice sound but yes, not enough output. 

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Timothy Perry

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 03:38:43 pm »

Well band and myself are going to go see the system tonight. If all promises are made on behalf of the system owner and the band, they will be picking it up this Sunday/Monday for $1800 out the door.

Which when all said and done, if they totally break up the band, I would gladly buy pieces or parts, or for that matter the whole system. I hope they don't give up though. And I hope they get 10-12 uses out of this system, OR more.

So if they get rid of the instrument cabs, and the rocktron processor, what else right off the top of your heads would they need to add?

Double up on the subs, if they can find the SE18-C somewhere? Amp for second set of subs? Do away with the bag ends totally and sell them and the intergrator, get something else???

I hate the fact they could, might, should, maybe upgrade right away but I guess that easily comes with the turn key systems out there.


I guess I should add exactly what they have now.

Pyle power amp (of some sorts)
Pyle 4 channel mixer
Audix drum mic set is at there disposal but they do not own it
3 AT2010 vocal mics <--slap me silly but I like these
Mic cables coming out of their ears, but some of questionable quality/durability
Couple speaker cables of varying ends
2 EV SX100 wedges
2 AT 57ish looking mics (I do not know the model number)
2 Shure 81ish looking ???beta-green???

They use the pyle stuff for practice, and some varying mics that I got free at fullcompass.

So what should, could, maybe add to boost the system to its "full potential", I know its limitations...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 04:08:02 pm by Timothy Perry »
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Gary Clontz

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 08:37:53 pm »

Well band and myself are going to go see the system tonight. If all promises are made on behalf of the system owner and the band, they will be picking it up this Sunday/Monday for $1800 out the door.

Which when all said and done, if they totally break up the band, I would gladly buy pieces or parts, or for that matter the whole system. I hope they don't give up though. And I hope they get 10-12 uses out of this system, OR more.

So if they get rid of the instrument cabs, and the rocktron processor, what else right off the top of your heads would they need to add?

Double up on the subs, if they can find the SE18-C somewhere? Amp for second set of subs? Do away with the bag ends totally and sell them and the intergrator, get something else???

I hate the fact they could, might, should, maybe upgrade right away but I guess that easily comes with the turn key systems out there.


I guess I should add exactly what they have now.

Pyle power amp (of some sorts)
Pyle 4 channel mixer
Audix drum mic set is at there disposal but they do not own it
3 AT2010 vocal mics <--slap me silly but I like these
Mic cables coming out of their ears, but some of questionable quality/durability
Couple speaker cables of varying ends
2 EV SX100 wedges
2 AT 57ish looking mics (I do not know the model number)
2 Shure 81ish looking ???beta-green???

They use the pyle stuff for practice, and some varying mics that I got free at fullcompass.

So what should, could, maybe add to boost the system to its "full potential", I know its limitations...

I don't know the capacity of the mixer. I'm sorta skeptical of some of Mackies mixer and other gear, but it maybe fairly good. Here's how I would hookup the existing system. I would use aux fed subs to keep the rumble out of the subs. I would run the system mono. I'd run a mono master send from the mixer to a 31 band EQ, and from there to a stereo 2 way active crossover ( like the DBX 223 ) and use one side for the TA-12's. Crossover at 100 Hz and send that signal to one side of the best amp. Since I don't know much about any of those amps, select the one that has about 600 watts per side into 4 ohms. That is a little more power than the TA-12's can handle but you need extra power to handle peaks cleanly. For the subs, choose an aux send from the mixer and run that to another 31 band EQ and from there, to the other side of the crossover. Select the same crossover point ( 100 Hz ) and engage the low cut filter: 40 Hz on a DBX . Run that to either the other side of the best amp, or use another amp to run the subs. All those Bag End cabs are 8 ohms, so by running mono and two cabs of one side of the best amp, you are getting 1/2 the power of each side to one speaker. It really depends on the individual amps and the power they put out. Subs need more clean power. As to aux fed subs, then just add the amount of subs you want to the instruments you want in the subs. Typically the kick drum, bass guitar if you need it in the FOH, the floor tom and keyboards ( but you do not have ). You can blend in the amount of sub for any instrument and keep it out of the vocal mics and other mics which can cause stage rumble. Mix the overall amount of sub level on the master aux send, on the EQ and the crossover. They all have level controls. I attempt to achieve unity on my gear and set everything to zero unity first. This usually requires me to run the amps full out ( no attenuation ). Then I can increase the levels without clipping any inputs. Doing it this way will maximize the gear, IMHO. Always start setting unity with your input gain control on the mixer, making sure you're not clipping the pre-amps. Set everything on zero, then bring the amp levels to the amount of volume needed. You can adjust the TA-12s with either the mixer master, the EQ level or the crossover level. Same with the subs. You need another 31 band EQ for the monitors and perhaps two more monitors, as two isn't enough IMO. If that mixer has the capacity, you could run either 1,2,3, or 4 separate monitor mixes, if you have enough amps and aux sends. Monitors will need eq because they have no channel strips for individual eq.
So, I'd add 2 more stage monitors, one Ashly or DBX crossover, 2 stereo 31 band EQ's. The 3 power amps are old and unknown condition. BGW and Crown are/were good brands but those are real old school. They maybe fine for monitor duty and you may need a good FOH power amp to run the mains and subs. QSC and Crown now make quality, lightweight amps. A QSC GX7 could run both the subs and the mains, and delivers 1000 watts at 4 ohms, giving each cab 500 watts RMS. More than the TA-12's can handle but you can turn that side down. I use a Crown Xs 1200 to run some TA-15's off one side and it puts out 1100 watts ( 550 per cab ) and I have no problems. Of course, if you try to turn it up beyond the cabs abilities, you can blow a driver for sure. So watch your levels. Now, you could get a DBX DriveRack and eliminate the crossovers and the eq's. Plus you'd get limiting, compression, and other system processing. It has a bit of a learning curve and not as easily adjustable on the fly, IMHO. Example, if I get a high pitched squeal on a monitor, I can easily drop some highs on the eq . Fussing with a Driverack's settings takes a little more time. But it is merely a matter of preference. As to the subs, yeah, you could try to pickup a couple more of those Bag End 18's. I would NOT buy them new. Or, replace with some more suitable ones. JBL SRX 118's. Even the old JBL MPRO 418's would be better.
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Timothy Perry

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 11:16:20 pm »

Saw the system, better shape then I thought.

It is odd though, the 15" mids were in fact being used as mids, or at least piggy backing on the TA-12's. I don't know how it was hooked up (I had limited time to check it all out), the back of amp rack looked pretty tiddy. Snake stage box is older with a total of 24/4 runs, so I think changing the box over to 22/6 would be preferred, but there are always gender changers.

And yes, aux fed subs would be my preferred way of doing it, but not sure if the extra crossover is in the budget right now. I run a Tannoy sub via an aux feed at church.

The macro tech in question here I think is a 1000 watt 8ohm on one side and 400 watt 8ohm on the other, from what I remember seeing the specs somewhere. Not sure on the two other amp specs.

Lets see here, oh there was a cd player rack mounted to that I think he said is included.

Tim
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 11:54:40 pm »


What would be good replacement for original drivers? I have a pair of S18E from '97or something and I'm having a bit rattle sometimes.
Nice sound but yes, not enough output.

I wanted to keep my subs because I liked the box size, which as it turns out is exactely the same as size as an SRX718. Working with Charlie Tappa owner of Pro Sound service, and with the recommendations from some folks I know at JBL, the 2242H turned out to be a perfect match. These are expensive at about $700 ea., but they do the job with a vengence. I run them now side by side with 718s and they compliment each other quite well with the 2242H working at about 10hz lower than the 2268 driven 718.
 
If the 2242 is a little pricey then talk to Charlie Tappa about B&C drivers. He had a B&C driver in mind I almost went with for about half the price each. But, being JBL since the 60's is a hard habit to break.
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I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Chris Carpenter

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 10:53:30 pm »

I don't know the capacity of the mixer. I'm sorta skeptical of some of Mackies mixer and other gear, but it maybe fairly good.
Compared to a Pyle, it is very good.

Here's how I would hookup the existing system. I would use aux fed subs to keep the rumble out of the subs.
I would not do this. From what I understand, the Bag End system uses a fairly complex crossover and bass management system (the integrator). It should sound good properly configured without the aux fed. I'm not an aux-fed hater, I just think you may achieve better results using the integrator on this particular setup.

I would run the system mono. I'd run a mono master send from the mixer to a 31 band EQ, and from there to a stereo 2 way active crossover ( like the DBX 223 ) and use one side for the TA-12's. Crossover at 100 Hz and send that signal to one side of the best amp. Since I don't know much about any of those amps, select the one that has about 600 watts per side into 4 ohms. That is a little more power than the TA-12's can handle but you need extra power to handle peaks cleanly. For the subs, choose an aux send from the mixer and run that to another 31 band EQ and from there, to the other side of the crossover. Select the same crossover point ( 100 Hz ) and engage the low cut filter: 40 Hz on a DBX .
What about time alignment?

So, I'd add 2 more stage monitors, one Ashly or DBX crossover, 2 stereo 31 band EQ's...
Remember this guy's on a craigslist budget here.
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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 10:58:46 pm »

Saw the system, better shape then I thought.
Well, how did it sound? Did it reach the SPL you were hoping for?

It is odd though, the 15" mids were in fact being used as mids, or at least piggy backing on the TA-12's. I don't know how it was hooked up (I had limited time to check it all out), the back of amp rack looked pretty tiddy.
Perhaps run in parallel with the tops?



I wanted to keep my subs because I liked the box size, which as it turns out is exactely the same as size as an SRX718.
That is cool that the upgrade worked. When considering driver upgrades, is internal volume the only requirement to match? 
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Timothy Perry

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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 11:35:42 pm »

I didn't have my SPL meter along. And the system was set up in a garage, LONG LONG 2 and 1/2 car garage (well 4 cars would fit in there easily, just of course not width ways).

System was facing one of the side walls near the far end, but a good 15-16feet from the corner. So with that said, I walked out of the garage with the guy playing the system, and it was plenty loud. And dang clear. Even more clear as I got on center, inside the garage.

Monitors left me wanting, the peavey's are just not what I am used to (our church has Martin F12's, and Tannoy, and EAW). But I am not a band member, so they have to deal with it, not me, well if they feedback then I have to deal with it. Oh and the monitors had a volume pot.

And yes I meant parallel with the tops. At least that is my best guess.

The sole band member that could come, drummer, drooled when he heard me play a mix of theirs over the system. The song I chose though starts with a kick and low tom beating, so maybe hearing his playing loud skewed the results perhaps?

If I didn't say it already the band and my wife and I are hopefully picking up the system, Sunday afternoon.
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Re: Bag End System?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 11:35:42 pm »


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