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[Mike Christy]

Maybe my limited expereince will give you some insight as well...

Im trying to think back to how I got started and expanded my contacts/gigs. It was mostly word of mouth, then a few "cold-emails" I guess youd call it, I had a niche already - my son "produces" hip-hop beds, and they needed PA for their shows, so that really helped lot.

An old friend in the sound biz who I had teched and mixed for years ago called with gigs he could not cover, in academia. NOTE: private schools = $$$$. 

Add to that having many musician friends over the years, with word of mouth that I provide PA, it provides me one offs and special shows, and it just builds from there.

An important thing is to understand what your expenses are going to be, insurance, transportation, labor, stortage, taxes... and when you start doing rider gigs, when you cant x-rent a specific piece of gear (another moniter, a dj mixer, another wireless, etc)  be prepared to probably bite the bullet and have to go out and purchase it.

My advise is to try to find a niche, as unglamorous or as distasteful as it may be, then build from there.

Mike

[Vince Gibbs]

I was in your shoes about 2 years ago.  That's when I started my own live sound business.  Before then, I was a struggling musician in town.  Working a day job and playing music in various bands at night.  I always hated day jobs and working as a musician wasn't paying very much.

Today, my sound business is my full time job.  It pays all my bills and allows me to save $$$ every month, plus upgrade my gear as needed.

So in that sense, I consider myself successful.  All I wanted from this business was to make enough money on a regular basis to be able to pay my bills and not work at some stupid 9-5.  That was my goal from the start.

There are several reasons why I am successful.  Here are a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head:

1.  I do an extremely good job.  Even on my very first sound gig, I got serious compliments from the band and audience about how good everything sounded.  I am very attentive to each musician's needs and do my best to give them exactly what they want.  Good communication is very essential.  If you are good at what you do, word quickly spreads around.  Same thing is true if you are bad at what you do.

2.  I live in a relatively small town.  So I used that to my advantage.  Since it is a small town, I know who my competition is and most of my competition just suck.  There have been so many complaints in this town about all the terrible sound men, so I took that as a challenge to prove that I could do their jobs better.  So knowing who your competition is, what they have to offer and what you can offer or do better than them is huge.  I would actually be a little scared to move to a bigger place to do this because I know there is probably a lot more competition in a bigger city.

3.  I also DJ and provide karaoke shows.  Since I have all this great gear and I love music, I took the time to learn how to DJ.  After I got DJing down, I expanded to karaoke shows.  I guess you would call this diversifying.

4.  I do offer basic band lighting (8 par cans on 2 T-bars) as well as dance floor party lights.  So I do have some very decent lighting I can provide for an additional cost.

5.  I always have business cards on me and hand them out often.

6.  Lastly, I am always checking to see what other sound men in my area are charging and I price myself accordingly.  Sometime I charge more and sometimes less.  I am flexible with my pricing depending on what is needed for the gig / event.


I'm sure there are many other reasons for my success, but those quickly come to mind.  Every month for the last 2 years, I am amazed... simply amazed at the amount of phone calls and emails I get to book me.  My calendar is usually booked a month or 2 in advance.  However, there have been many times where I started a new month with only 2 to 3 gigs booked, but miraculously... the month ends up getting booked up anyway.  For 2 solid years straight, I haven't had 1 month where I did not meet my financial goals from this business.

I knock on wood everyday.  I feel like I am in a dream because I am living the dream I set out for myself 2 years ago and so far, it's only getting better and better.  No end in sight yet.

I wish you the best of luck with this.

[Randall Hyde]

I disagree about putting the Company Name on gear where the audience can see it.  Why?  Because we're hired to provide a service, not promote ourselves.  If I did what you suggest, the CEO's minions will have the hotel catering dept. draping black table clothes over the offending advertisements.

Yeah, not a wise choice in a typical ballroom type event.

Festivals also take a dim view of this, since they charge sponsors really big money to put up their banners and signs.

I generally put up a 3'x5' banner on the FOH canopy and leave it at that. I have been asked to remove it at a couple of shows and I am quick to oblige. However, I've gotten several gigs by having the banner up.  My contract explicitly states I can do this (as well as use photographs of the event on my web site and in promotional materials), but I don't push it if the promoter is making a big deal about sponsors.

If I know an event is going to rely on sponsors, I'm usually one of the sponsors. Give 'em a paper discount and they'll help promote you, too.  Generally, though, I've found it less than worthwhile to give up any real money for such sponsorships (I do a couple gratis jobs a year for the exposure, that's good enough for me).

Nice shirts with discreet logos and a stack of attractive business cards are almost always appropriate.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim mc

The "relying on sponsors" is a big issue. I recently did a "Gourmet Food Truck Fest" in Ontario Ca. Originally, I was approached by someone (indeed, someone associated with one of the free gigs I was talking about) that wanted me to keep the show between $1,500 and $2,000 so their costs wouldn't be out of control. When I talked to the actual promoter, I was a bit confused because they said "we figure the 'A' system is what we want and we want you to put a truss (with shade) over the stage." I suggested that this wasn't in the budget I was led to believe they were working with. Turns out, they had Toyota sponsoring the stage and they were spending Toyota's money, not their own.  They were willing to spend a lot more money under those circumstances.  (BTW, no banner of my own at that stage).  As was pointed out earlier in the thread, this is the right type of client to work for.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[Randall Hyde]

I've recently put together my own rig and am now in the process of writing a business plan. 

Whoops! That was backwards. Business plan first. But that's okay; most of us started out that way.

My business is essentially renting the rig out with myself as the tech.  I'm offering "full service" sound reinforcement which means delivery, setup, teching and take down of the rig for each event.

Which is the way to do it. You gear will last 10x longer if no one touches it but you.

To start, I'm focusing on smaller events (up to 200 people for bass heavy music and a little more for non bass heavy) as that is what my gear and amount of expertise will allow.

For DJ'ing or playing recorded music, you'll do okay. I think you'll find the low end is a bit weak for loud acts. Also, I'd recommend a minimum of at least four channels of monitors (separate mixes). I typically provide six and that's often insufficient (and have to dip into some of my older MI gear to provide eight).

I've invested just over $20K into my gear.  I have 2X RCF ART 715-A tops and 2X RCF ART 905-AS subs plus 3X RCF monitors, a 100ft Radial snake, a Mixwizard, mics, a processing rack and more.  The full list is here :: www.probioticsoundsystem.net/rentals.  I have access to rent extra gear if needed on a per event basis, so I'm not limited by what I own.

I do a lot of "speakers on sticks" public address jobs (typically $400-$500 in my market) with less gear than this (take away your subs, substitute a cheap-ass Behringer mixer for the A&H). The main thing I've got that's missing from your list is a small portable generator. Get a Honda 2000; relative quiet and provides about 13 amps; perfect for small jobs that aren't near an outlet. Runs about $1,000 (US).

When I first started, my second or so setup (past the "I'm going to rent out my personal PA and try to make money" stage) was roughly equivalent to your's: A couple JBL Mpro 225 columns, four JBL Mpro 415 monitors, a couple JBL MPro 418 subs, and some Crown XLS amps. I remember doing a national "C" act with that rig and the lead guitarist telling me "these subs have no balls." That's when I first figured out that I simply didn't have the "rig for the gig." Trust me, if you want to do bass-heavy material, even for only 200 or so people, you're going to need to significantly boost what you've currently got. Of course, you'll need more tops, too, in order to get a balanced sound.  I know nothing about the ART cabinets you've got, so maybe I'm wrong here, but unless they are amazingly efficient, I suspect that 2,000 watts for the low end isn't going to cut it. I was scraping by until I managed to get 10,000 watts (four bridged Crown XTi 4000 amps driving four JBL SRX 728s subs); things got a lot better when I connected up for ITech 8000 amps to those subs (16,000 watts). This year, I'm looking to double that (another 3 dB, Yeah!) and I'll probably be happy.  Sadly, I've spent more on my subs and amps than you have on your entire system (and this is for low-end pro stuff; what I'd really like are some of the Danley Sound Labs subs).  But don't let this depress you; it's something to aspire to -- you can do small stuff without any difficulties with your rig. Just don't try to oversell yourself.  BTW, at least you started with a DR260; I made the mistake of starting out with a DRPA (two of them, in fact). The 260 is much better. I'm using one right now (and planning to upgrade to a 4800 in the next two months).

I live in Victoria BC, Canada.  The population here is about 350,000.  Victoria is on a big island where the population is about 750,000 total.

I live in Riverside, Ca. The population is less than Victoria, BC. Granted, I find lots of work in neighboring cities and I don't have to take a ferry to get to those gigs, but you should be okay if there isn't a tremendous amount of competition around you.

I want to eventually make a full time living with this business and I'm hoping that some of you can give me a reality check for how to go about doing this.

Keep your day job
Seriously, I never wanted to do this full time (I'm a contract software engineer and I make a lot more money programming than I ever will running a sound company), but over the past eight years or so I've been doing this it's been sucking up a lot more of my free time. After eight years of word of mouth and very little other marketing, plus a few lucky breaks, I could probably make $60,000/year at this if I really worked at it. Currently, I dump a lot of my (production) income into salaries paying people who are doing work I could probably do myself, so I probably pocket nothing each year (I spend about $40,000-$50,000/year on equipment purchases and business expenses). However, production company income has tided me over while waiting for some slow (software) customers to pay; OTOH, I've also used a lot of software income to cover payroll and equipment purchases when my production clients where slow to pay.

Bottom line is that unless you're in a great market or you're really lucky, don't expect to make any kind of a decent living off this business for many years. You've got to pour every penny you make back into the business and get your equipment up if you want to do pro audio for a living. And as someone (Tim, I believe) pointed out, DJs make a heck of a lot better return on their investment than to ankle-biter pro audio companies. You've got a great system for DJing. Take advantage of that. Do weddings, parties, stuff like that. Not as cool as live bands, but it will get the money coming in.

Who are your customers?  Where is the money to be found in this business?

Municipalities, non-profits, shopping centers, and business associations are my main customers. A couple bands have hired me (but they have no money). I generally do very few corporate gigs (public address), but that's probably where a lot of money is to be made in this business.

I'm stuck in my business plan writing because I don't know who my potential customers are.

Possibilities ::

-Venues without a house sound system

IOW, bars.
Bar gigs just aren't worth it in my opinion. The reason the venue has no equipment is because they have no money. Having to wash all the beer rings off your speaker cabinets, hand wash all your cables, and deal with microphones that "smell like a beer" (regards to Billy Joel) isn't fun. Having drunks spill drinks on your console *really* isn't fun.

-Popular, touring bands

Good luck with that one.  They usually have a sound guy already (if they don't already have their own gear). If you're lucky, some friends of your's whom you've provided free sound services for many years will take you on tour with them when they first go on tour. And then they drop you for the "pro" when they get popular (been there and done that in a recording studio a couple decades back).
 

-Promoters who like to have their shows in venues without a house system (community halls, churches, etc)

Probably one of your best bets.
BTW, don't forget churches that don't have their own building/system yet. Of course, they don't have any money, either, so plan on being real cheap.

-Wedding planners

Definitely. Weddings are "beneath" me (having said that, I just did a wedding for a friend) but there is *lots* of money to be made at weddings and wedding receptions. DJ make a killing at weddings. I like to say that there is no way the Bride is a virgin on her wedding night after being raped by the DJ at the reception . Cheap DJs will pull $500 for a wedding; good ones can pull as much as 10x that amount. On the average, I'd expect it to be between $1,000 and $2,000. To be truthful, you won't get that kind of money with your gear doing a live rock show; you might get it (with the appropriate DJ setup + software) at a big wedding reception.

-High school dance organizers

DJing, perhaps. High schools hiring live acts generally expect that acts to bring their own sound system.

-Corporations that have events requiring sound reinforcement

Absolutely. AFAICT, this is where the steady income really is in this business. I don't believe that the system you've got is "ballroom event" ready, but it's probably perfect for company picnics, small training sessions, and stuff like that. Generally, if an event is at a hotel, the hotel will require the use of a house system (and tech), but check with your local hotels and event centers and find out the scoop. Many companies have "all hands meetings" outdoors and could use some speakers on sticks for those events.  I don't personally do to many of these events because (1) they're boring, (2) they require active marketing to get and I'm too busy at my day job to get this kind of work, and (3) my business is a hobby and I do it for fun (so I can "rub elbows" as it was succinctly put in a different post) and this type of work isn't what I want to do. However, if I were trying to do this for a living, I'd be all over this kind of work. It's relatively easy (doesn't require massive skill level at mixing complex acts, for example) and it pays well.

The second thing I'm stuck on is if owning a rig and being skilled at it's use are enough to get a good number of gigs or should I be looking at getting into some lighting and staging as well?  Or perhaps partnering with other people who specialize in lighting and staging?

I got into sound because I wanted to do lighting. I found out that it's much easier to sell sound services and add on lights than it was to sell lighting services. Today, about 25% of my jobs are sound only. About 50% are sound and stage. Another 25% are sound, stage, and lights. Once in a great while I rent out a stage by itself or lights by themselves.

I've found that having stage and lights gets me a lot of gigs I wouldn't otherwise get because the client only has to shop for what they need from one vendor. So yes, having lights and staging is a good investment if you want to have a working production company.  However...

Once you get into staging, you can't do a show by yourself. And to use a famous quote: "Expenses are those things that run around on two legs." It is amazing how much better your profit margin is going to be if you can do all the work yourself. Once you start hiring people, doing shows starts to get really expensive. I don't know what the labor laws in Canada are like, but I can tell you that the labor laws in California just don't work for this business. In the sound business we don't work five 8-hour days each week. We work two 16-hour days (or three 12-hour days, if we're lucky). So you wind up paying double time for 16 of the 32 hours your crew works each week (or you expand your crew and pay your people next to nothing each week).

Even adding lighting means you're going to need to add another person. If you're doing lighting correctly, it's not some cheesy sound-activated par can setup; you've got a lighting operator/designer running the light board while you run the sound board. As was suggested in an earlier post, make friends with someone who does lights (and has no interest in getting into sound). That's probably cheaper in the long run. If you decide to get into lights, don't do that cheaply. Figure on spending at least $500/fixture.  I made the mistake of buying $250-$300/fixture LED fixtures and I've regretted it ever since (I don't need a lead guitarist telling me that my lights suck -- they barely provide stage illumination). The good news is that some 200W LED fixtures are becoming available in the $500 range; 150W/fixture is the minimum I'd suggest. Don't buy those cheap <30W fixtures you find at Guitar Center, they're worthless.

The big problem with staging is going to be transportation and setup. A typical 4'x8'x2' stage section weighs 100-160 pounds and costs between $400 and $600 (with shipping) at the low end. It's going to take two people to setup and strike such a stage (expenses). You've also got to store and transport that stage. I've got some Midwest Folding Products stage sections that work like folding tables. They weigh 156 pounds each. Two people setting up a 24'x16' stage are going to be absolutely exhausted (and generally it takes three people to set up these particular stage sections). You can get 4'x4' sections, that would be easy for two people to set up, but you'll pay a lot more money for the same size stage. Bil-Jax has some great adjustable 4'x4'xadjustable (up to about 4' high) stage sections but they cost about $600 each (not including shipping IIRC). You'd need 24 of them for a *small* 24'x16' stage.

I stage out with a 16'x16' stage (and actually managed to put a 24-piece orchestra on it!). I quickly discovered that the smallest practical stage for a 5-piece rock band (to provide room for monitor zones) is 24'x16' -- and that's pushing it. I've put bands on an 8'x16' plus 4'x8' extension in the back for drums, but that is a very crowded stage. 16'x16' is a very small stage (eight 4'x8' sections) and 24'x16' is better. These days, I'm starting to get more and more requests for 32'x20'.

When you get into staging, transportation becomes a big issue. My 24'x16' stage weighs in at almost one ton with stairs, skirting, and drum riser. You aren't going to thrown that in the back of a pickup (I made that mistake once). You'd better have a fairly sturdy trailer if you're carrying stage and sound gear in the trailer together (my trailer has a 5,000-pound payload capacity for example) or you better have a box truck with a lift gate (which I typically use for shows with a stage).

I'd stick with sound as long as you can. When you can grow your business, add staging. Then add lights. Then add trussing over the stage (for shade).  By then, you'll probably need a 20' box truck.  Oh, and a generator, too.

Any business advice that you have to offer would be much appreciated!

Quit while you're ahead!
Seriously, though, good luck.
And don't forget an important piece of advice that was once given to me: "gigs begat gigs."
The more gigs you do, the more you're going to get. Don't be afraid to work cheap to get the job as you're getting started. You'll hear lots of people around hear complain about the ankle biters bidding too low and not knowing what they're doing, and so on and so on. Bottom line is that if you don't have 10 years of experience doing this sort of stuff, you've got to get that experience somewhere. Work cheap. Get the experience. Then raise your prices. That's exactly what I did. Some people think you can never raise your prices; that BS. I started doing concerts for $250; today I'm charging that client $2,500. True, I'm providing much better equipment (which I remind them about every time they mention that I used to charge them $250), but I successfully raised my prices. In another couple of years, I expect that my prices for my "A" rig (probably a better system at that point) will be double what it is today.  I'd recommend you follow a similar trajectory.  That said, beware of doing free gigs (or, at least, pick your free gigs very carefully); you'll wind up getting used if you do too many free gigs for friends and that never turns out well. Take the $75 job at a boring venue over the free gig for the exciting rock band every time.

Most importantly: read. Go to your local Guitar Center (or similar) and buy every book you can find on Pro/Live Audio. Most of them are not all that great, but if you learn only one important thing from them, they will be worth the money you spent on them.  Read all the articles here on PSW. Start with the most current and work you way back (obviously, skip the press releases). It is amazing how much you can learn by doing that. You can save five years of in the field experience by reading rather than trying to learn everything by doing it.

Finally, don't forget that you get to use your equipment for a fixed number of times before it needs to be replaced or upgraded. I'm still using the original pair of JBL Mpro 225 columns I bought eight or nine years ago, but they're clearly reaching the end of their life span. You've spent $20,000 on your gear. Plan on getting around 200-400 uses out of everything (on the average) doing portable (setup and strike) gigs. Simple math tells you that it's costing you $50 to "rent" your gear each of those 400 times you use it. So I'd be setting aside $50 from each gig into a savings account for gear replacement costs. As you grow your system, you need to bump up this amount correspondingly. It's easy to off and forget your sunk costs when bidding on a job. That's not a good thing to forget if you ever want to grow your business to the point you can make a living from it.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

[David Parker]

the reason I commented about my meager earnings working for club bands was to say that there's not enough money in that to make a living. It might be fill in work when you aren't busy with good paying gigs. I do it because I like it and it gives me "pocket money". After I retire from my day job, it will be a nice side income to supplement my retirement.

[Oliver Giving]

Wow thanks for everyone's input.  This discussion is quite valuable for me!

Now, a couple of other things.  What is your experience in audio, both from a technical and musical perspective?  Do you also play an instrument or sing more than casually?  Have you run a business (manager or owner) before?  I know, lots of questions, but the more we know the more brutally honest the answers will be.

Thanks for the questions Tim.  I am indeed looking for brutal honesty here.

My experience with audio has come from being an electronic music DJ (12 years), electronic music producer (4 years, including a 1 year full-time school program) and working at a few different small venues teching (mostly) folk music shows.  Small venues meaning 100 person capacity.  These small venues have been my only experience teching live music before I bought my own rig.

I have also organized and promoted around 50 of my own shows (of up to 200 people), mostly electronic music dance events.  I've done all of the tech stuff for these shows and this is where I spent most of the time on my learning curve. 

Between Djing, producing music, and teching live shows, I have over 10,000 hours of experience behind a mixer, whether that be a DJ mixer, a board or the Cubase/Ableton Live mixer.  I have put A LOT of effort into these things.  My idea of a good time is reading a book on microphones, samplers or MIDI :-)

Musically, I don't play an instrument or sing but I have basic music theory knowledge from music production school.  Lately, I have been seriously considering taking piano and/or singing lessons both for my own interest and because I think it might help my business to be more in the know here.  It sounds like this might be a good idea.

Business-wise, this is my first venture.  I have not been an owner or manager of anything before, though I was the assistant manager of a restaurant/art&music venue for two years.  A few years ago I took a 60 hour entrepreneurship course which is where I learned how to go about writing a business plan.  Since this time, I have been studying up on business, reading a couple of handfuls of books.  So I am aware of the basics of business such as the importance of having a target market, having a remarkable service that people talk about and occupying a unique position in my marketplace which is different from my competition.

My first thought looking at your gear list is that your mics, DI's & monitors are a little skimpy for live bands.

You seem to have plenty of experience DJ-ing - how much experience do you have actually running sound for live bands ?  They're definitely two different animals.

Thanks for your thoughts Mike.  How many more mics, DIs and monitors do you recommend me getting?  Perhaps I should get a bigger mixer and snake as well?  Right now I have a 16 channel A&H Mixwizard and a 16X4, 100ft Radial snake.  I rent whatever gear I fall short on for a particular show (more mics, etc)

Admittedly my experience is mostly with DJ shows, specifically underground electronic dance music.  I'm going to guess and say that I've done 75-100 shows with live bands in my life.  And none of these have been huge bands.  Mostly folk and world music.

That being said, I feel confident teching live bands and have always received nothing but compliments.  I don't think anyone has ever said anything negative about my work.  It was largely based on this good feedback that propelled me to finally buy my own rig and start working towards making a name for myself and then (hopefully) a decent living with what I love to do most. 

I think a big reason for all the good feedback I've received is because I'm a hard worker and a good communicator.  I make things happen while taking the needs of the musicians, venues and promoters I am working with into consideration.

Tim touched on this but while you have discussed the gear, you haven't really said much about yourself.  The company may be new but are you personally established?  Do you have any existing contacts?  Will people you previously worked with in the past follow you to your new venture?  How well do you know your potential competitors or peers and what relationships do you have with them?  Are there any non-solicit or non-compete constraints involved?

The comment "I want to eventually make a full time living with this business..." also stood out.  It's not unusual for people to ease into the business but factors such as how much time you can dedicate to it, how much you have to rely on immediate or short term income or return on investment, how flexible your schedule is and so on could definitely affect what may be practical or required.  For example, if you have limited availability 9-5 on weekdays then that may limit the potential for corporate opportunities.

Thanks for your help Brad.  I would say that I still have quite a bit of work to do to get personally established - and I know this is part of the challenge of my situation.  I've been living in this city for two years and have some good contacts here but obviously not nearly enough yet.

There are three major sound companies in Victoria that offer full service: Pacific Audio Works (www.pacificaudio.com), SW Audio-Visual (www.sw-online.com) and Sharps (www.sharpsav.com).  I have a buddy that works at Pacific Audio Works and I've ordered a bunch of my gear through them.  So I have a good relationship with those guys.  The other two I don't have any relationship with yet.

I've done my research on the prices that these three companies charge and I am able to do the same things for half or a third of the price (and that's getting paid well).  This is because I don't have overhead such as a warehouse and employees.  So price is one way I can differentiate myself from my peers.  Other than price, I am still searching for my position (niche, angle) amongst the sound company crowd.

I have purchased all of my gear through family loans and there is no pressure to pay these back in the short term.  My day job is very flexible, so I am generally available for gigs.

   

[Brad Weber]

I've done my research on the prices that these three companies charge and I am able to do the same things for half or a third of the price (and that's getting paid well).  This is because I don't have overhead such as a warehouse and employees.  So price is one way I can differentiate myself from my peers.  Other than price, I am still searching for my position (niche, angle) amongst the sound company crowd.

Being a one person firm myself I can identify with this.  However, I find the reality is not so simple.  While you may not have as much overhead in physical space, inventory, etc. you will still have to have the same insurance, same tools, same qualifications and gear and so on as anyone else in order to compete for the same work.  And without multiple employees over which to spread any overhead costs, all such costs come out of the charges for your time and services.  Some options may also not be available to you, for example some of the group insurance plans offered as a benefit by industry trade associations have minimum size or participation requirements.

Being a one person shop also means that you have no backup.  If you get sick or injured or have an emergency, what happens?  This is not only something you have to consider but something your potential clients may also consider.  I'm lucky enough to have relationships with my 'competition' that if that were to happen I might lose the immediate work but could hand off the client to someone I trusted to serve them well and not try to screw me (and I would try to do the same for them).

Think about whether you really want to be getting work based primarily on price.  It is often discussed here how that can be a slippery slope as a) there will always be someone cheaper, if not now then after you start taking work from them, and b) what perception is offered and what kind of clients do you attract if your reputation and work is based on being the cheapest?  Some potential clients may indeed be looking for the lowest price but others, perhaps including the more desirable clients, may avoid 'cheap' and instead look for the best value at a fair price.  Maybe you will decide that this is they way you want to go and that is fine, but making a reputation based on being the cheapest definitely can have two sides.

[Mike Reilly]

How many more mics, DIs and monitors do you recommend me getting?

Our "basic mic kit" that goes out with most of our systems is 6 58's, 6 57's, 2 condenser mics, 1 kick mic, 3 or 4 tom mics (sennheiser 604, EV 468, etc) and 6 DI's.  Plus assorted xlr-to-trs adaptors, 1/4" cables, rca to 1/4" cables, mini-stereo to 1/4" cables (aka "ipod cable") and an IEC power cable so we can lend it to the band when the guitar player discovers that he left his Marshall cable at the last gig. 

This seriously covers about 95% of the bands we run into, including "popular touring acts."

"Basic monitors" are 4 mixes (with EQ for each), 3 mixes down front with 4 or 6 wedges (if only 4 wedges, the center mix gets 2 wedges) with a larger/higher powered wedge or trap box for the drummer.

Oh yeah, and you'll want stands & cables for all the mics.  Plus some extras for when (not if) they break.

Perhaps I should get a bigger mixer and snake as well?  Right now I have a 16 channel A&H Mixwizard and a 16X4, 100ft Radial snake.  I rent whatever gear I fall short on for a particular show (more mics, etc)

Bigger mixer ? I'd vote "Nah, not yet"  One of our systems that gets a ton of use has a Crest XR-20, which is only "20 channels" because the last 4 can take 2 inputs (including 2 XLR, which is a nice feature) and before that the rig had a first-generation MixWiz, which we still have hanging around and wind up using 5 to 10 times a year.

A 16-channel mixer works in your kind of situation because for small gigs you keep your input list fairly minimal - don't bother with overhead mics for the drumkit (or you just do overhead mics & don't mic the toms), you take keyboards in mono not stereo, percussion players get say 1 conga mic per 2 congas & an overhead for the other junk,etc etc.

I would very seriously think about saving up your $$ and getting a small-format digital mixer, like a Yamaha LS9.  If you can rent one to try out, do it.  Our LS9-16 is probably the mixer that gets the most use.

Your snake is an issue, as you can't return 4 mixes plus stereo mains without using gender-benders and eating up 2 input channels, but on the other hand you might be eating up those 2 channels on the desk with FX returns or input from your laptop/ipod for in-between-acts music, so it might be a wash.  A new snake should be on your radar, but it's maybe not a "right-now" purchase.

Admittedly my experience is mostly with DJ shows, specifically underground electronic dance music.

The thing is . . . .  (and I'm not saying that you're like this personally) . . . . I've seen a ton of DJ's try to move into the live band world - they figure, "hey, I've got a pile of speakers & a bunch of amplifiers and how hard can it be ?"  And then they run into 14 live mics on stage, with a snare drum @ 110db umiced and a bunch of cymbals washing the whole stage @ 4K up and two Marshall half-stacks and a full Ampeg SVT rig all turned up to 11 and suddenly they discover that "enough rig for the gig" when you're amplifying pre-recorded music is nowhere near enough rig for the gig for your fairly typical local rawk band.  And their EQ skills are nowhere near good enough to get the vocals loud enough in the monitors, and their multi-tasking skills are nowhere near good enough to deal with all 5 band members asking for things in their monitors simultaneously.

And then there's the logistics/stage managing aspect of a live band show, as you'll undoubtedly do multi-band bills, with 45-minute sets and 15-minute changeovers, and you have to wrangle mics around, and you have no idea what band input lists are until they wander onstage, and the show HAS to run on schedule or all kinds of people will freak the fuck out and/or the cops will shut you down before the headliner goes on.

So . . . . don't be that guy.  Like I said, DJ shows and live band shows can be 2 very very very different animals.

Mostly folk and world music.

That right there might be your "niche market" and a good place to start from.  You likely already have a good reputation & good contacts in those circles. You can do possibly cover a lot of those shows for a fair price without stepping on anyone's toes, as the larger companies in your area might be passing on those shows because there's not enough money in it for them, or they're simply not interested in the music or don't even really realize those shows exist.  And IME a lot of world/folk music promoters/show organizers may not realize how much easier and more pleasant it is having an actual pro sound company and tech provide & operate the gear rather than relying on whatever the acts bring or some oddball pile of gear that gets "donated".

I think a big reason for all the good feedback I've received is because I'm a hard worker and a good communicator.  I make things happen while taking the needs of the musicians, venues and promoters I am working with into consideration.

Keep that up and you'll do fine.

[Rich Grisier]

I disagree about putting the Company Name on gear where the audience can see it.  Why?  Because we're hired to provide a service, not promote ourselves.  If I did what you suggest, the CEO's minions will have the hotel catering dept. draping black table clothes over the offending advertisements.

Yeah, not a wise choice in a typical ballroom type event.

Festivals also take a dim view of this, since they charge sponsors really big money to put up their banners and signs.

I generally put up a 3'x5' banner on the FOH canopy and leave it at that. I have been asked to remove it at a couple of shows and I am quick to oblige. However, I've gotten several gigs by having the banner up.  My contract explicitly states I can do this (as well as use photographs of the event on my web site and in promotional materials), but I don't push it if the promoter is making a big deal about sponsors.

If I know an event is going to rely on sponsors, I'm usually one of the sponsors. Give 'em a paper discount and they'll help promote you, too.  Generally, though, I've found it less than worthwhile to give up any real money for such sponsorships (I do a couple gratis jobs a year for the exposure, that's good enough for me).

Nice shirts with discreet logos and a stack of attractive business cards are almost always appropriate.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim mc

The "relying on sponsors" is a big issue. I recently did a "Gourmet Food Truck Fest" in Ontario Ca. Originally, I was approached by someone (indeed, someone associated with one of the free gigs I was talking about) that wanted me to keep the show between $1,500 and $2,000 so their costs wouldn't be out of control. When I talked to the actual promoter, I was a bit confused because they said "we figure the 'A' system is what we want and we want you to put a truss (with shade) over the stage." I suggested that this wasn't in the budget I was led to believe they were working with. Turns out, they had Toyota sponsoring the stage and they were spending Toyota's money, not their own.  They were willing to spend a lot more money under those circumstances.  (BTW, no banner of my own at that stage).  As was pointed out earlier in the thread, this is the right type of client to work for.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

I can see the points both of you are making.  Certainly some discretion must be used depending upon the situation.

It's very difficult to "get the name out there" when you're just starting out.  It can literally add years to develop a client list if your company name is hidden.  If you're at the level of doing corporate events for Toyota then I'm gonna guess that a lot of promotion is not necessary... but if you're running sound for a classic rock cover band in a bar that can hold 200 people then I see nothing wrong with some visible promotion.

Hmmm... I wonder if Marshall amps would have taken off if Jim would have left his name off the front of his amps & cabs?

[Tim McCulloch]

Yeah, not a wise choice in a typical ballroom type event.
I generally put up a 3'x5' banner on the FOH canopy and leave it at that. I have been asked to remove it at a couple of shows and I am quick to oblige. However, I've gotten several gigs by having the banner up.  My contract explicitly states I can do this (as well as use photographs of the event on my web site and in promotional materials), but I don't push it if the promoter is making a big deal about sponsors.

If I know an event is going to rely on sponsors, I'm usually one of the sponsors. Give 'em a paper discount and they'll help promote you, too.  Generally, though, I've found it less than worthwhile to give up any real money for such sponsorships (I do a couple gratis jobs a year for the exposure, that's good enough for me).

The "relying on sponsors" is a big issue. I recently did a "Gourmet Food Truck Fest" in Ontario Ca. Originally, I was approached by someone (indeed, someone associated with one of the free gigs I was talking about) that wanted me to keep the show between $1,500 and $2,000 so their costs wouldn't be out of control. When I talked to the actual promoter, I was a bit confused because they said "we figure the 'A' system is what we want and we want you to put a truss (with shade) over the stage." I suggested that this wasn't in the budget I was led to believe they were working with. Turns out, they had Toyota sponsoring the stage and they were spending Toyota's money, not their own.  They were willing to spend a lot more money under those circumstances.  (BTW, no banner of my own at that stage).  As was pointed out earlier in the thread, this is the right type of client to work for.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde


I can see the points both of you are making.  Certainly some discretion must be used depending upon the situation.

It's very difficult to "get the name out there" when you're just starting out.  It can literally add years to develop a client list if your company name is hidden.  If you're at the level of doing corporate events for Toyota then I'm gonna guess that a lot of promotion is not necessary... but if you're running sound for a classic rock cover band in a bar that can hold 200 people then I see nothing wrong with some visible promotion.

Hmmm... I wonder if Marshall amps would have taken off if Jim would have left his name off the front of his amps & cabs?

Jim Marshall was selling a "brand" of physical product; he wasn't hired to provide a service.

And running sound for a rock band in a 200 capacity bar isn't going to be a profit center no matter how many banners you put up.  Really.

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