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[Gary Creely]

The issue is not only whether the hardware could be the cause of failure but also whether in the event of any failure or problem it could shift liability to you.

Brad,

Liability would shift to me if a failure occurred no matter whose bolts I used, then I would need verify that I used properly spec'ed hardware. These conversations always amuse me. We go round and round about these details, mean while on many of my instals next to my speaker rigging job (in which you could probably suspend a small car, and my 60lbs speaker) the electrician is hanging 70lbs lighting fixtures with a single malleable lag hook.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

What are your professional qualifications for making such a statement?  Just checking......

I am a partner in an AVL integration company that carries Multi-million dollar contractor liability insurance. I have used thousands of forged shouldered eye bolts of varying stripes with not one failure.

Gary.....

Thanks for answering my question.  I asked for clarification on this particular point because it applies to the issue of ultimate responsibility in a court of law.

Neither you nor I are engineers or lawyers, so anything we say here must either be taken with a large grain of salt or we must err on the conservative side of things.  Brad Weber says it well:

 "The issue is not only whether the hardware could be the cause of failure but also whether in the event of any failure or problem it could shift liability to you."

This indeed is the issue.  In the event of a catastrophic failure, past instances of "having gotten away with it" will not avail.  So when offering free Internet advice the "company line" is really the only way to go.  Offering short-cuts or anything short of manufacturers equipment rather puts one in the situation of "aiding and abetting", so to speak.

I do not presume that you are operating your business in a way that is less than ethical or below your well-considered opinion on the safety of each and every installation you do.  Rather, I suggest that telling others to do what you have done is not completely kosher if (legal) push comes to shove.

That's all.......

DR

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I agree with Dick in that internet advice is worth as much as it costs to support your legal defense, and should be used at one's own peril.

However...

I agree with Gary in that a common legal tactic is to sue anyone who has ever been through the doors of the building, and let the courts (or an out of court settlement) decide what sticks.  Using the manufacturer supplied eye bolts won't change this fact, and unless the failure happened at the eye bolts (which is extremely unlikely with a Grainger-type quality forged bolt that is specified for overhead lifting), I doubt that would enter in to the equation.  As Dean says, at some point you're going to be using equipment made by someone else anyway.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I agree with Dick in that internet advice is worth as much as it costs to support your legal defense, and should be used at one's own peril.

However...

I agree with Gary in that a common legal tactic is to sue anyone who has ever been through the doors of the building, and let the courts (or an out of court settlement) decide what sticks.  Using the manufacturer supplied eye bolts won't change this fact, and unless the failure happened at the eye bolts (which is extremely unlikely with a Grainger-type quality forged bolt that is specified for overhead lifting), I doubt that would enter in to the equation.  As Dean says, at some point you're going to be using equipment made by someone else anyway.

I've highlighted the above for comment.

Yes, that's likely true.  And the first "person through the doors...." to be found departing in any way from the strictest reading of all pertinent requirements will be set upon by the legal beagles.  When the laws*it hits the fan everybody gets spattered.  Limiting the odds of it being you is cheap insurance.

The thing that started all this debate was a question which in essence asked, "Can I use cheaper parts?".

[Jamin Lynch]

I agree with Dick in that internet advice is worth as much as it costs to support your legal defense, and should be used at one's own peril.

However...

I agree with Gary in that a common legal tactic is to sue anyone who has ever been through the doors of the building, and let the courts (or an out of court settlement) decide what sticks.  Using the manufacturer supplied eye bolts won't change this fact, and unless the failure happened at the eye bolts (which is extremely unlikely with a Grainger-type quality forged bolt that is specified for overhead lifting), I doubt that would enter in to the equation.  As Dean says, at some point you're going to be using equipment made by someone else anyway.

You also have to use some common since. The OP is obviously not flying a large 1200lb. line array system but a 40 something lb. speaker box. I'll bet a forged, load rated shoulder eyebolt identical to the manufacture's recomnded one will be just fine. Just use safe rigging practices. If it comes crashing down, it means it wasn't properly suspended and probably not a bolt problem. QSC does not manufature eyebolts. They may even get them from the same place Grainger gets them.

Either way, everybody gets sued.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

The thing that started all this debate was a question which in essence asked, "Can I use cheaper parts?".

To which the answer, in classic Dick Rees fashion, is "It depends." 

[Jamin Lynch]

The thing that started all this debate was a question which in essence asked, "Can I use cheaper parts?".

To which the answer, in classic Dick Rees fashion, is "It depends." 

Cheaper doesn't always have to mean "lower quality"

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

The thing that started all this debate was a question which in essence asked, "Can I use cheaper parts?".

To which the answer, in classic Dick Rees fashion, is "It depends." 

I got that from Ivan......

[Gary Creely]

What are your professional qualifications for making such a statement?  Just checking......

I am a partner in an AVL integration company that carries Multi-million dollar contractor liability insurance. I have used thousands of forged shouldered eye bolts of varying stripes with not one failure.

Gary.....

Thanks for answering my question.  I asked for clarification on this particular point because it applies to the issue of ultimate responsibility in a court of law.

Neither you nor I are engineers or lawyers, so anything we say here must either be taken with a large grain of salt or we must err on the conservative side of things.  Brad Weber says it well:

 "The issue is not only whether the hardware could be the cause of failure but also whether in the event of any failure or problem it could shift liability to you."

This indeed is the issue.  In the event of a catastrophic failure, past instances of "having gotten away with it" will not avail.  So when offering free Internet advice the "company line" is really the only way to go.  Offering short-cuts or anything short of manufacturers equipment rather puts one in the situation of "aiding and abetting", so to speak.

I am fundamentally disagreeing with your premise. You suggest using non- factory supplied ibolts gives you undue legal exposure. I am suggesting that if the proper ibolt is used there is no liability issue based on that.

To me that would be like saying since you used a Rane RPM DSP that caught on fire you are more liable because you didn't use the matching QSC DSP. I am sorry, but you do not need to be a lawyer to know that is a ridiculous premise. 

Also, why would you for for my legal credentials to discredit my advice, when you were giving legal advice with a similar lack of those same credentials???

This indeed is the issue.  In the event of a catastrophic failure, past instances of "having gotten away with it" will not avail.  So when offering free Internet advice the "company line" is really the only way to go.  Offering short-cuts or anything short of manufacturers equipment rather puts one in the situation of "aiding and abetting", so to speak.

Using the correct ibolt is not "getting away" with anything. If you want to tow the company line feel free, I am just saying as a professional I do not agree that in this case it creates a realistic liability issue.

I have also said that M10's are just over priced, wether you get them from Grainger or QSC. Even from grainger they are similar in cost to the community kit. So, in this case there is not a significantly more cost effective approach. 

Or to put it an other way, I actually don't disagree that using the factory bolts are not a bad way to go. I just don't believe fear of legal ramifications to be the best reason, or even a good one.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Gary....

It's one thing to do it yourself.  It's another thing to tell people that it's OK for them.  You obviously feel comfortable with taking personal responsibility for your decisions in this regard.  I'd feel the same way about my decisions.

But I wouldn't necessarily recommend that anyone else make such decisions without knowing the possible ramifications. 

And in the end, it's not about what is legal or illegal in a court of law.  It's about whether or not your insurance company will look for anything on your part that will let them deny your claim.  And you KNOW how that industry works.

This was put "in a nutshell" in my first post.
DR

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