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Author Topic: Networking  (Read 6390 times)

zohar pajela

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Networking
« on: July 15, 2011, 05:10:18 am »

what's up guys,

one quick question, i just want to find to find out how you guys network your vertecs and crown amps.

i was just wondering if we should be getting cisco switches and routers instead of using our home grade hubs and linksys router. would that be to much or is that the way you guys do your network too?

i do have some basic knowledge with cisco's stuff and i feel that it would help us a lot and make the network more stable

thanks,
ZOhar
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Robert Weston

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Re: Networking
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 10:17:09 am »

Home grade stuff should be fine, but probably depends on how important redundancy is for the networking and if you feel that having non-managed switches is ok.  I can't really say yes/no to this.  However, the use of hubs in any network is now considered a huge "no no".
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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Networking
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 03:52:50 pm »

one quick question, i just want to find to find out how you guys network your vertecs and crown amps.

i was just wondering if we should be getting cisco switches and routers instead of using our home grade hubs and linksys router. would that be to much or is that the way you guys do your network too?

i do have some basic knowledge with cisco's stuff and i feel that it would help us a lot and make the network more stable

First off, cisco owns linksys. So don't go off and replace all your linksys gear with cisco for brand loyalty.

If you don't have a good bit of experience with managed networking, you may want to stay away from the managed gear. While the increased flexibility is great for computing, it just means more stuff to go wrong if you don't know how to set it up.

You mentioned making the network more stable. What stability problems are you having? If you have no unexpected downtime and the network is fast enough, stick with what you have and spend your money elsewhere.

If you are familiar with managed networking and feel an upgrade would be useful, a couple advantages that you will find in enterprise networking equipment is that it will typically rack mount in your standard racks, and be much more durable.

However, the use of hubs in any network is now considered a huge "no no".
+1.  Ethernet hubs were a bad idea in 1990, and there are an even worse idea today.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 03:56:21 pm by Chris Carpenter »
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Networking
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 06:58:03 pm »

First off, cisco owns linksys. So don't go off and replace all your linksys gear with cisco for brand loyalty.

On the other hand, don't confuse Linksys gear with Cisco gear, the 2 are not equivalent.

Mac
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Networking
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2011, 01:00:11 am »

First off, cisco owns linksys. So don't go off and replace all your linksys gear with cisco for brand loyalty.

On the other hand, don't confuse Linksys gear with Cisco gear, the 2 are not equivalent.

Mac

There are three product lines: home, small business, and enterprise. The Cisco name has replaced the Linksys name across all three product lines. The enterprise line that always was Cisco will continue to be called Cisco; what used to be Linksys Business Series is now Cisco Small Business Series, and what used to be Linksys home stuff is now Cisco Home Networking.

And to clarify, a hub and switch essentially serve the same purpose, but switches are smarter and more efficient. They don't make hubs anymore, thank goodness. (Think of a hub as the old party line, where everyone heard everyone else. A switch sets up "private line" routing between each node, so the nodes only get the traffic intended for them.)

In my opinion, the Cisco Home Networking stuff is total crap and nowhere near the quality of the old (+5 years) Linksys home-grade gear. The shape of the Cisco Home routers remind me of a cowpie.


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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Networking
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2011, 03:01:44 am »

On the other hand, don't confuse Linksys gear with Cisco gear, the 2 are not equivalent.
Right, the two product lines serve different purposes. I'm just saying there's nothing inherently better about cisco gear. They both do what they were designed for very well, and Zohar should pick the one that fits his needs.

In my opinion, the Cisco Home Networking stuff is total crap and nowhere near the quality of the old (+5 years) Linksys home-grade gear. The shape of the Cisco Home routers remind me of a cowpie.
That may be the case, but the old linksys gear was hard to beat. The wrt54g was about as badass as a piece of networking gear got. It's the only reason I haven't yet upgraded to N.

But back on topic. If you could use the features of the enterprise equipment, go for it. If what you have is working, stick with it.

Finally, if you do decide to go managed, give some consideration for ADTRAN equipment. I spent three years at the company writing the control software, and the hardware is very well built (think CS800). Also, built and supported here in Huntsville, AL.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Networking
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2011, 12:18:37 pm »

That may be the case, but the old linksys gear was hard to beat. The wrt54g was about as badass as a piece of networking gear got. It's the only reason I haven't yet upgraded to N.

Still have one that's 8 years old; using it right now. Solid as a rock.

I wouldn't have a problem recommending the Cisco Small Business stuff, usually cheaper than enterprise gear and for the OP's application will probably perform very well. I've had bad luck with the lower-end Dell switches; they use a Realtek chipset. I have had a lot of problems with Realtek-based network devices (slow thruput, locking up, high error counts).

That said, I don't know what's inside the Cisco SB stuff... I've never opened one up to see. Maybe it's Realtek, then the egg would be on my face. I sure hope not.

I haven't tried the latest generation of HP ProCurve switches. In the past, I had a lot of problems with port speed/duplex/MDI-X negotiation. Devices that supposedly linked at 100Mbps full duplex saw dialup speeds; locking the port to 10Mbps (one tenth the speed) would make it perform as expected. Plug the device into any other brand of switch and it would work just fine no matter the speed setting.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Networking
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2011, 12:29:48 pm »

That may be the case, but the old linksys gear was hard to beat. The wrt54g was about as badass as a piece of networking gear got. It's the only reason I haven't yet upgraded to N.

Yeah, they keep working, in their way, but I have both a WRT54g, and a WAP11, and neither one of them has as good RF performance as my Apple Airport or Airport express. I only keep the 2 Linksys access points around for those occasions where I need to attach an external high gain antenna. Even with internal fully enclosed antennas the 2 Apple access points have much better range than the Linksys, and almost never need to be rebooted.

If I was relying on a wireless access point to actually run a show, where a failure could cost me a client, the investment in an enterprise grade access point would be worth the money. Linksys ain't that.

Mac
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Networking
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2011, 10:41:44 am »

Cisco makes a series of switches for just about every use, and to fit every budget. Vertec was a part of the original post so my assumption is that this equipment will be used for performances where reliability should be the number one consideration. That being the case I would not be looking at low cost home use hardware.

I would suggest that anyone with serious dependencies limit their search to either the Cisco Catalyst compact series, HP V series, or even Dell as a starting point. Either series can provide reliable entry level hardware and services. HP switches can be purchased as either managed or unmanaged. WAPs fall into the same catagory but switches were the original topic. However, the same rule applies.

Also be aware that a switch does not have to be segmented into subnets and that all ports will be active out of the box providing the same functionality as a hub. This is true of almost all switches with the exception of enterprise class products.

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps11527/Products_Sub_Category_Home.html

http://h17007.www1.hp.com/us/en/products/switches/index.aspx


You might also be interested in knowing that Dell has a good series of switches available. These are very common in large data centers and they offer an additional benefit. The benefit is that you can purchase an extended warranty with optional 4 hour support. should the switch fail, not power on, etc. you'll have a new one within 4 hours, is the Boston area probably less than 2 hours. These are mostly re-branded Cisco at a much better price. Any of the power connect series will fill the bill.

http://www.dell.com/us/enterprise/p/switch-powerconnect

I have seen very, very few switch failures within the class of hardware I mention above. Many switch failures with home class junk. 

Good luck with your search.
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Bob Charest

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Re: Networking
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2011, 12:06:46 pm »


I have seen very, very few switch failures within the class of hardware I mention above. Many switch failures with home class junk. 

Good luck with your search.
Hi Bob,

In trying to get a rack-mountable wireless router with an external antenna I came across the CISCO1811-K9. The used unit I was looking at has since been sold, but I'd like to know if you had any experience with that model.

Thanks,
Bob Charest
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Networking
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2011, 02:51:34 pm »


I have seen very, very few switch failures within the class of hardware I mention above. Many switch failures with home class junk. 

Good luck with your search.
Hi Bob,

In trying to get a rack-mountable wireless router with an external antenna I came across the CISCO1811-K9. The used unit I was looking at has since been sold, but I'd like to know if you had any experience with that model.

Thanks,
Bob Charest

The 1800 series are a well built product and generally found being used as access points in departmental configurations (smaller).
 
Be careful when buying these. I say that because they have fixed configurations which Cisco introduced to enhance "ease of installation". There's a link below for you reference.
 
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/routers/ps5853/prod_qas0900aecd8028a95b.html
 
 
If your system will be closed (no outside traffic) then you might consider a pair of switches and a pair of true access points. You'll only be paying for what you need, and your system will be secure. Additionally, should an access point fail you will then be able to run hard wire between the stage and FOH (or other points) as needed.
 
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps5678/Products_Sub_Category_Home.html
 
Keep in mind that routers are generally used to connect to networks outside of your common network. for instance, a network in another building, the web, or another subnet in a very large network. Again, why pay for something you don't need.
 
The 1040 series are good WAPs.
 
 
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Re: Networking
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2011, 06:37:12 pm »

Hi Bob,

In trying to get a rack-mountable wireless router with an external antenna I came across the CISCO1811-K9. The used unit I was looking at has since been sold, but I'd like to know if you had any experience with that model.

Thanks,
Bob Charest

 
The 1800 series are a well built product and generally found being used as access points in departmental configurations (smaller).
 
Be careful when buying these. I say that because they have fixed configurations which Cisco introduced to enhance "ease of installation". There's a link below for you reference.
 
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/routers/ps5853/prod_qas0900aecd8028a95b.html
 
 
If your system will be closed (no outside traffic) then you might consider a pair of switches and a pair of true access points. You'll only be paying for what you need, and your system will be secure. Additionally, should an access point fail you will then be able to run hard wire between the stage and FOH (or other points) as needed.
 
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/ps5678/Products_Sub_Category_Home.html
 
Keep in mind that routers are generally used to connect to networks outside of your common network. for instance, a network in another building, the web, or another subnet in a very large network. Again, why pay for something you don't need.
 
The 1040 series are good WAPs.
Hi Bob,

Thanks much for the info/links! Understood about fixed config (20 years in IT) and after I'd gone through the doc, it seemed like the 1811 would have worked for me. My "Holy Grail" was a rackmounted solution with internal power supply and external antenna. In the small system my band uses, all addressable gear has hard-coded IP addresses. I could certainly use switches/WAPs but wanted to have it all in one rack space with an external antenna. I appreciate the reply and will check out the 1040 series.

Best regards,
Bob Charest
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zohar pajela

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Re: Networking
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2011, 09:05:17 pm »

thanks for all the replies guys! i got my hands full this couple of days so didnt have much time to reply.

like bob leonard was saying, we're trying to make our network as reliable as possible so we can get that headache out of the way. the biggest setups that we usually make consists of a 12 per side FOH(DPDA Vertec), 8 per side SOH(DPDA Vertec), plus we also include our itech amps in the network, which is usually about 7 per side. giving us all 54 network addresses, and we have to be able see how they are all performing at the same time,. now im thinking this might be heavy on the home class router(linksys) that we are using. That's why we end up losing one or two cabinets on the network from time to time but then eventually get it back and maybe that's why the network is sometimes reacting slow. plus we have to connect our tablet wirelessly on the network too, but eventually we lose connection to the router even if we are only 6 feet away. 

i'll try to look up on the dell routers/switches and maybe some cisco as well. thanks again for all the suggestions!

zohar
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Re: Networking
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2011, 09:05:17 pm »


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