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Author Topic: Not enough rig for the gig??  (Read 7248 times)

Teddy Murphy

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Not enough rig for the gig??
« on: July 13, 2011, 11:14:50 pm »

Ok, here is the situation.  I have been approached by a group that is putting on a show with 2 "national" christian acts.  Neither of these are A list acts, and their riders aren't that picky.  In fact, the most difficult rider of the 2, I have met on more than one occasion at outdoor festivals.  The situation is that the room is a 2500 cap. gymnasium.  They are only opening the bottom half for seating and only selling 750 total tickets for the event.  If this were 750 people in a reasonable room, I would not doubt my rig, but with it being in a gymnasium of this size, I am kind of worried.  I have not agreed to do it, but they are on a REALLY tight production budget, so if I can't cover it, they may have some major problems.  Anyway, here is my rig:

4- JBL SRX722
4- JBL SRX728
1-Crown XTI1000 Highs
2-Crown MA3600 Mids
2-Crown MA12000i Subs
3-JBL MPRO 12" for front fill fed from 3 Crown XTI1000
DBX Driverack 260

Do you think that I can cover this adequately, if not, what would you recommend adding to cover this. 
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Chuck Simon

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 12:45:22 am »

There are going to be people that will be happy to tell you what the perfect rig for the gig should be, but I would feel  confident handling that situation with the gear  you have.  I'm assuming that you can meet their requirements for monitors, right? 

You know these guys and what they expect, don't worry about it.
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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 12:59:10 am »

You know these guys and what they expect, don't worry about it.

It sounds like the hiring band is familiar with your rig and seems to believe it will be plenty. I wouldn't be too concerned. Denying them your services because you don't believe they will suffice will do a lot more to hurt your business relationship than being slightly under powered.
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Robert Weston

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 06:53:15 am »

Your rig appears to be more than enough, especially for indoors.

Is there an anticipated SPL requirement stated in the contract?
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 07:20:42 am »

It's enough rig.
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David Morison

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 07:38:10 am »

Do you think that I can cover this adequately, if not, what would you recommend adding to cover this.

Regardless of the rig size, try and make sure there is as much curtain/drape on the walls as possible. If you're filling less than 1/3 of the room with waterbags, excessive reverb could be a bigger problem than not having enough speakers and amps.

And FWIW, while I haven't used those speakers before, I'd guess from their rep around here they'll do just fine.

HTH,
David.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 07:40:26 am »

It's enough rig.

  +1
  And...even if it's not...I'm sure they'll be christian about it.. ;)

 Have fun, don't worry.
  Hammer
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Teddy Murphy

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 09:18:20 am »

Thanks guys.  One of the 2 National bands travels with their own IEM rig, and while the other band that I have worked with's Rider asks for 6 Bi-amped wedges down the front, they have performed without complaint on my 6 MRX 512 wedges fed from XTI-2000's.  Drum wedge is a JBL MPRO 15 and a JRX 18' sub.  The rider for the band that I haven't worked with "requires" 110 dba at FOH which will be about 75 feet from stage.  The band, however, doesn't have a FOH guy and I am pretty confident that their TM isn't going to be walking around with a meter checking.  I personally haven't ever checked my rig for DB ratings.
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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 09:36:47 am »

Ok, here is the situation.  I have been approached by a group that is putting on a show with 2 "national" christian acts.  Neither of these are A list acts, and their riders aren't that picky.  In fact, the most difficult rider of the 2, I have met on more than one occasion at outdoor festivals.  The situation is that the room is a 2500 cap. gymnasium.  They are only opening the bottom half for seating and only selling 750 total tickets for the event.  If this were 750 people in a reasonable room, I would not doubt my rig, but with it being in a gymnasium of this size, I am kind of worried.  I have not agreed to do it, but they are on a REALLY tight production budget, so if I can't cover it, they may have some major problems.  Anyway, here is my rig:

4- JBL SRX722
4- JBL SRX728
1-Crown XTI1000 Highs
2-Crown MA3600 Mids
2-Crown MA12000i Subs
3-JBL MPRO 12" for front fill fed from 3 Crown XTI1000
DBX Driverack 260

Do you think that I can cover this adequately, if not, what would you recommend adding to cover this.

If your headlineer is Tree 63 with the Marshalls turned up to 11 then you don't have enough rig at all!  If it is just about any of the other christian bands I have worked with then I think you'll be fine.
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Chris Davis

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 10:49:02 am »

The rider for the band that I haven't worked with "requires" 110 dba at FOH which will be about 75 feet from stage.
 The band, however, doesn't have a FOH guy and I am pretty confident that their TM isn't going to be walking around with a meter checking. 

 

I've had that exact same thing happen before.  With acoustic acts.  It turned out that the band members didn't seem to know what the numbers really meant, and their tech rider was simply "borrowed" from other bands they met at larger events or festivals along the way.  They sent it out [as they put it] as an example rider.  Yeah...eight biamped monitor mixes, 29 channels, 4 KF850/EV X-Array traps per side or similar minimum & 4 dual 18 subs per side minimum, into a room that could hold 1000 at best.  All for two people with AC guitars and no accompaniment tracks.  As usual, I advanced it first...  Actual FOH concert levels were about 90 or 93 dB @100 feet.  ;D
 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 11:00:44 am by Chris Davis »
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Teddy Murphy

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 04:11:07 pm »

Thanks again guys.  The only issue we are running into now is the Riders say that analog consoles with proper outboard is acceptable, now one of  the TM's are trying to refuse anything less than an M7CL. Production budget prevents that from happening.  I am plenty comfortable on a digital console (M7 is one of my favorite consoles to mix on)  but I am more comfortable mixing on my console.  Sorry, just venting somewhat.
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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 04:40:48 pm »

the Riders say ... one of  the TM's are trying to refuse

This is where the rider works in your favor.
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Mike Christy

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 12:39:53 pm »

The rider for the band that I haven't worked with "requires" 110 dba at FOH which will be about 75 feet from stage.
 The band, however, doesn't have a FOH guy and I am pretty confident that their TM isn't going to be walking around with a meter checking. 

 

I've had that exact same thing happen before.  With acoustic acts.  It turned out that the band members didn't seem to know what the numbers really meant, and their tech rider was simply "borrowed" from other bands they met at larger events or festivals along the way.  They sent it out [as they put it] as an example rider.  Yeah...eight biamped monitor mixes, 29 channels, 4 KF850/EV X-Array traps per side or similar minimum & 4 dual 18 subs per side minimum, into a room that could hold 1000 at best.  All for two people with AC guitars and no accompaniment tracks.  As usual, I advanced it first...  Actual FOH concert levels were about 90 or 93 dB @100 feet.  ;D

Yup, I have a rider stating 120db SPL at 100', 180 degree coverage, do the power amp requirement calcs on that. Rediculous....
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Randall Hyde

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 01:37:36 pm »

The rider for the band that I haven't worked with "requires" 110 dba at FOH which will be about 75 feet from stage.
Holy Crap!
That's gotta be real painful for the people in the front row.
I'm real happy getting 100 dba; that's generally loud enough for a rock show.

In any case, I usually run 4 JBL SRX 725 and SRX 728s cabinets. Last year I was doing crowds (outdoors) of about 2,500 to 3,000 and my rig ran out of gas at the back of the crowd. I'm adding delay stacks for the series this year (let's me turn down the stacks at the stage and that sounds a whole lot better).  Definitely the rig you've got should do <1,000 indoors real easy. But as others have said, I'd worry about the reverberation.
Chers,
Randy Hyde
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Stuart Pendleton

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 02:40:47 pm »

I had one of those riders show up a few years ago. Club for 300 or less. They did not get what they asked for, but it was truly painful even with what I gave them. It cured me of wanting to work with the big boys even in club land.

*Backline volume around 119db
*125db at Mix Position (75 ft or so back)
*4 x 15"+2" Bi-amp wedges in a semi-circle for lead singer


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Tracy Garner

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 02:42:11 pm »

Holy Crap!
That's gotta be real painful for the people in the front row.
I'm real happy getting 100 dba; that's generally loud enough for a rock show.

In any case, I usually run 4 JBL SRX 725 and SRX 728s cabinets. Last year I was doing crowds (outdoors) of about 2,500 to 3,000 and my rig ran out of gas at the back of the crowd. I'm adding delay stacks for the series this year (let's me turn down the stacks at the stage and that sounds a whole lot better).  Definitely the rig you've got should do <1,000 indoors real easy. But as others have said, I'd worry about the reverberation.
Chers,
Randy Hyde

I ran that same setup on July 4 with pretty much the same crowd. You may not want to worry much about the back of the crowd because some people like to be back there so they can talk without yelling. I am find myself putting a set of 115 or 112 facing a bit toward center stage at stage height because the highs on the 725/728 stack is often over the heads of the first few rows outdoors.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2011, 11:01:16 am »

I would be sure to set up the rig to minimize getting sound on walls or ceiling. Perhaps getting the mains up high enough so you can tilt em down a bit to avoid the rear wall too.

Depending on the shape of the area (is the stage on long wall or short wall) and where the audience is, you may consider running dual pa vs simple 2 per side.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2011, 11:39:55 am »

Thanks again guys.  The only issue we are running into now is the Riders say that analog consoles with proper outboard is acceptable, now one of  the TM's are trying to refuse anything less than an M7CL. Production budget prevents that from happening.  I am plenty comfortable on a digital console (M7 is one of my favorite consoles to mix on)  but I am more comfortable mixing on my console.  Sorry, just venting somewhat.

  Hello,

   If the TM is not going to actually mix for the group....what does he care what console YOU use, as long as you have enough channel inputs, and have a decent amount of outboard gates, limiters, comps and verb/delay units?
  Cheers,
  Hammer
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Sam Zuckerman

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2011, 02:15:10 pm »

It should do just fine. As mentioned, if you can hang drape, do it. I've had luck with some bus compression in order to help cut down on room reverberations. Though this was for speech only but if it's a problem it could be worth a shot.

We use a VERY similar rig for our 700cap. ballroom. It's plenty for that. We move the rig over to the 3500cap gymnasium for smaller shows. We did Lewis Black in there with that rig. The gym was sold out and we hung a bunch of drape so that helps. We also taped into the gym PA system and used it to fill just the upper levels.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2011, 09:05:50 pm »

Thanks again guys.  The only issue we are running into now is the Riders say that analog consoles with proper outboard is acceptable, now one of  the TM's are trying to refuse anything less than an M7CL. Production budget prevents that from happening.  I am plenty comfortable on a digital console (M7 is one of my favorite consoles to mix on)  but I am more comfortable mixing on my console.  Sorry, just venting somewhat.

  Hello,

   If the TM is not going to actually mix for the group....what does he care what console YOU use, as long as you have enough channel inputs, and have a decent amount of outboard gates, limiters, comps and verb/delay units?
  Cheers,
  Hammer

+1
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Sam Zuckerman

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 10:12:38 pm »

Thanks again guys.  The only issue we are running into now is the Riders say that analog consoles with proper outboard is acceptable, now one of  the TM's are trying to refuse anything less than an M7CL. Production budget prevents that from happening.  I am plenty comfortable on a digital console (M7 is one of my favorite consoles to mix on)  but I am more comfortable mixing on my console.  Sorry, just venting somewhat.
TMs don't know jack. (at least the one's I've met)

We had a small acoustic act come through, just a singer/songwriter and the TM was obsessed with making sure we had a DI because "it's a pretty unusual piece of equipment." I was in the room when my boss was talking to the TM on the phone and it took all of his self control to not laugh in the TM's face when the he said that.
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Tim Padrick

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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2011, 11:27:44 pm »

Depends on the room.  If the seating area is wide and shallow, 2x722 per side should do well.  If the seating area is narrow and deep, you need something with more pattern control (though you could try stacking them).
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Re: Not enough rig for the gig??
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2011, 11:27:44 pm »


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