ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: New church plant sound setup  (Read 11046 times)

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4148
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 09:36:47 am »

Ok, a little bit of an update, as a number of things have changed.  First off, we were able to get a different school with an auditorium (seats about 450), which solves a number of the sound issues vs. being in a gym.  I have purchased some equipment.  We have two JBL PRX615 for the main speakers and a Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 for the board.  The goal is to add at least 1 JBL PRX618s-xlf before the launch (not sure if we need two).  We have five passive DI's (one countryman, 4 EWI's) and a 150' 16x8 Reel snake from EWI.  I have a SM58 and all the drum mic'ing we will need.  Here is what I was thinking that we need before our Launch

- At least 2 wireless mic systems.  I was thinking of getting AT-3000's (one handheld system and one UniPak transmitter for Pastor with a MM audio earset mic).  I have heard a lot of good things about the AT-3000 and it will be right around our budget of $1,000. 
- At least one JBL PRX618s-xlf sub (not sure if we need two). 
- Wireless IEM for the drummer.  I was thinking of getting the AT-M2M
- Floor Wedge monitors for the rest of the group.  Here I am not really sure what route to go at all.  I like the ease of active monitors for volunteers, but we do want to reduce clutter on the stage.  I have in the budget about $1,450 for the monitors ($2,000 - $550 for the AT-M2M).  I am really open to any thoughts / suggestions.  If we were to go passive, the amps and wedges would have to be around that $1,450.
- Misc cables.  I have some, but we also have around $150 in the budget for other cable needs (I do have a good pair of 50' XLR's cables for the main speakers)

Is there anything I am missing?  I would also be really open to comments / suggestions on the stuff I have listed.  Thanks!
I would go Line6 XD-V70 for wireless http://line6.com/xd-v/
I just bought a channel for myself and am REALLY impressed.  2.4Ghz frequency means the FCC won't take your mics away in a couple years.  One handheld and one lav system will be under your budget.  They're Shure compatible so you can run an earset mic or a different lav element if you want.  Do a forum search for Mike Pyle - he's a good dealer to work with.

If money is tight, I would skip the wireless ears for the drummer and go wired.  Spend some money on good earbuds, and get a wired headphone amp to start with.  We've had fairly good luck with this one: http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/headphone-distribution/default/pa-1-personal-headphone-monitor

I haven't used this particular one but have used other Rolls equipment, and this is likely fine and cheaper than the above Whirlwind:
http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM50s


Active monitors (good ones, not crap like Tapco Thumps) will be easier to make sound good.  If it were me, I would get a pair of QSC K10 monitors which should be under your budget as long as you only need 2 of them.  I would caution you about trying to go too far down the foodchain with these though - if you try to get 4 wedges and amps for your $1500 budget you will be really scraping the bottom of the barrel.  Get a pair of good ones such as the K10s and add more later.  If money is REALLY tight, skip the wireless handheld mic and apply that money to more monitor wedges.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 10:04:48 am by TJ (Tom) Cornish »
Logged

Taylor Phillips

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 365
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 10:03:20 am »

Ok, a little bit of an update, as a number of things have changed.  First off, we were able to get a different school with an auditorium (seats about 450), which solves a number of the sound issues vs. being in a gym.  I have purchased some equipment.  We have two JBL PRX615 for the main speakers and a Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 for the board.  The goal is to add at least 1 JBL PRX618s-xlf before the launch (not sure if we need two).  We have five passive DI's (one countryman, 4 EWI's) and a 150' 16x8 Reel snake from EWI.  I have a SM58 and all the drum mic'ing we will need.  Here is what I was thinking that we need before our Launch

- At least 2 wireless mic systems.  I was thinking of getting AT-3000's (one handheld system and one UniPak transmitter for Pastor with a MM audio earset mic).  I have heard a lot of good things about the AT-3000 and it will be right around our budget of $1,000. 
- At least one JBL PRX618s-xlf sub (not sure if we need two). 
- Wireless IEM for the drummer.  I was thinking of getting the AT-M2M
- Floor Wedge monitors for the rest of the group.  Here I am not really sure what route to go at all.  I like the ease of active monitors for volunteers, but we do want to reduce clutter on the stage.  I have in the budget about $1,450 for the monitors ($2,000 - $550 for the AT-M2M).  I am really open to any thoughts / suggestions.  If we were to go passive, the amps and wedges would have to be around that $1,450.
- Misc cables.  I have some, but we also have around $150 in the budget for other cable needs (I do have a good pair of 50' XLR's cables for the main speakers)

Is there anything I am missing?  I would also be really open to comments / suggestions on the stuff I have listed.  Thanks!
I'd forget wireless IEM for the drummer, he's probably not going to move around the stage much while he's playing.  I think you'll want more vocal mics as well, I like the Sennheiser e835 which you can get in a pack of three for less than $250.  For monitoring, I think I would go with passive because it's less to hook up every week and you don't have to worry about having enough outlets on stage for them.  Also, if you get more musicians and need more wedges, you can get another passive wedge and daisy chain to another, saving money and the need for another power outlet.  I haven't heard EV's passive ELX speakers, but the active ones sound great so I'd look at them.  I don't know a lot about amps, though.  As for are you missing anything, do you have stands for mics and speakers? 
Logged

Aaron Fisk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 10:21:13 am »

I'd forget wireless IEM for the drummer, he's probably not going to move around the stage much while he's playing.  I think you'll want more vocal mics as well, I like the Sennheiser e835 which you can get in a pack of three for less than $250.  For monitoring, I think I would go with passive because it's less to hook up every week and you don't have to worry about having enough outlets on stage for them.  Also, if you get more musicians and need more wedges, you can get another passive wedge and daisy chain to another, saving money and the need for another power outlet.  I haven't heard EV's passive ELX speakers, but the active ones sound great so I'd look at them.  I don't know a lot about amps, though.  As for are you missing anything, do you have stands for mics and speakers?

Here were my thoughts on the wireless IEM for the drummer (but I am still open to change)
- less cords to run (we want to have as clean of a stage as possible in terms of cords)
- has a built in limiter (if I went the cord route, I would have to put a limiter in anyway)
- easy to add a second receiver if the bassist wants IEM

Not sure how many people we will have singing.  I do have in the budget for an additional 2 SM58's, if we need them.  I have plenty of mic stands and I did purchase speaker stands as well. 
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4148
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 10:50:14 am »

I'd forget wireless IEM for the drummer, he's probably not going to move around the stage much while he's playing.  I think you'll want more vocal mics as well, I like the Sennheiser e835 which you can get in a pack of three for less than $250.  For monitoring, I think I would go with passive because it's less to hook up every week and you don't have to worry about having enough outlets on stage for them.  Also, if you get more musicians and need more wedges, you can get another passive wedge and daisy chain to another, saving money and the need for another power outlet.  I haven't heard EV's passive ELX speakers, but the active ones sound great so I'd look at them.  I don't know a lot about amps, though.  As for are you missing anything, do you have stands for mics and speakers?

Here were my thoughts on the wireless IEM for the drummer (but I am still open to change)
- less cords to run (we want to have as clean of a stage as possible in terms of cords)
- has a built in limiter (if I went the cord route, I would have to put a limiter in anyway)
- easy to add a second receiver if the bassist wants IEM

Not sure how many people we will have singing.  I do have in the budget for an additional 2 SM58's, if we need them.  I have plenty of mic stands and I did purchase speaker stands as well.
You have a limiter built in to your Studiolive I presume? If you can live with the same mix for both bass and drums (could be doubtful on ears), you can do that whether wired or wireless - a second wired headphone amp will still be cheaper than a second wireless receiver.

This is all about making due with limited resources.  If money was no object I would get a board with enough auxes for everyone and put the whole band on PSM900s.  Since we are trying to stretch dollars, wired is your friend.
Logged

Aaron Fisk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 12:57:37 pm »

You have a limiter built in to your Studiolive I presume? If you can live with the same mix for both bass and drums (could be doubtful on ears), you can do that whether wired or wireless - a second wired headphone amp will still be cheaper than a second wireless receiver.


I guess I haven't even looked enough at the Presonus Studiolive yet (just got it), but you are right, I do believe it does have a limiter.

I am now thinking of the following for my monitor setup
- Crown XLS1500 DriveCore Series Power Amp (2)
- EV ELX112 (passive) (3)

I think I am going to forgo the wireless IEM for the drummer for now. Can get a wired headphone amp for the drummer (are there any that do stereo?)

Does this seem to make sense?  First time dealing with passive monitor setups.
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4148
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 01:15:06 pm »

I guess I haven't even looked enough at the Presonus Studiolive yet (just got it), but you are right, I do believe it does have a limiter.

I am now thinking of the following for my monitor setup
- Crown XLS1500 DriveCore Series Power Amp (2)
- EV ELX112 (passive) (3)

I think I am going to forgo the wireless IEM for the drummer for now. Can get a wired headphone amp for the drummer (are there any that do stereo?)

Does this seem to make sense?  First time dealing with passive monitor setups.
Most headphone amps are stereo, but that means you will take two auxes from your board to drive that.  The StudioLive doesn't have many to spare, so that's probably not going to be a good direction for you.

Those monitors and amps will work, but I stick to my opinion that you get better performance per dollar with active speakers.  This just came up in the Marketplace (not necessarily a personal endorsement):
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,4030.0.html

I've hard the SxA250 and they sound great. 

I understand the desire to minimize cables on stage, but there are ways to do that with active speakers - several companies make a power cord and XLR combo designed exactly for this.  With passive speakers you need an amp rack on or near the stage, and you need to tune the wedges with something.  Your Studiolive can do some of this, but not to the degree that is done by the manufacturer inside active boxes, and your tuning will only be as good as the one who sets it up.  If you don't have anyone with a lot of experience doing this, I guarantee that the SxA250 or the K10 will sound better than any $300 - $500 passive wedge.

Back on the wireless for a moment, if you consider the Line6, make sure you look at the model I mentioned - the XD-V70.  There's an XD-V30 that is older technology and not as good.  Check out this thread for more opinions:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,1373.0.html
Logged

Aaron Fisk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 03:35:52 pm »

Most headphone amps are stereo, but that means you will take two auxes from your board to drive that.  The StudioLive doesn't have many to spare, so that's probably not going to be a good direction for you.

I understand the desire to minimize cables on stage, but there are ways to do that with active speakers - several companies make a power cord and XLR combo designed exactly for this.  With passive speakers you need an amp rack on or near the stage, and you need to tune the wedges with something.  Your Studiolive can do some of this, but not to the degree that is done by the manufacturer inside active boxes, and your tuning will only be as good as the one who sets it up.  If you don't have anyone with a lot of experience doing this, I guarantee that the SxA250 or the K10 will sound better than any $300 - $500 passive wedge.


Interesting.  I have read some posts from some others stating they have actives for their monitors and plan to go back to passives.  I could probably get 3 EV ELX112p (the active ones) for about the same money as the 2 amps and the 3 passives, it would just cost more to add a fourth monitor if we needed it.  I guess I am open to either one.  I just have been getting a lot of conflicting feedback (in terms of actives vs. passives).
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4148
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 04:20:12 pm »

Interesting.  I have read some posts from some others stating they have actives for their monitors and plan to go back to passives.  I could probably get 3 EV ELX112p (the active ones) for about the same money as the 2 amps and the 3 passives, it would just cost more to add a fourth monitor if we needed it.  I guess I am open to either one.  I just have been getting a lot of conflicting feedback (in terms of actives vs. passives).
There are great passive monitors - they're just not the $300 ones, and they still take setup and processing to get right, and often require biamping for best performance. 

I haven't heard the ELX EVs either the active ones or the passive ones, but I suspect they're a notch down from the SxA250 and the K series.
Logged

TJ (Tom) Cornish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4148
  • St. Paul, MN
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 04:54:49 pm »

I just have been getting a lot of conflicting feedback (in terms of actives vs. passives).
I'd be curious to know what their reasons are, what passive wedges they're going to, and how they're driving them.  I suspect the reasons are more complicated (and probably moving to more expensive monitors) than "passive is better".

Most reasonable quality active speakers (QSC K, QSC KW, QSC HPR, RCF, EV SxA, Mackie SRM450s, Mackie HD, FBT, and nearly all of the higher class actives - ADR, EAW, Meyer, etc.) are internally biamped, have high quality crossover designs (easier to do and less lossy if done before the amplifiers), have internal limiting, and have tonal processing to make the speaker sound pretty good without external EQ and be pretty hard to kill because of the internal protection. 

Getting all that in a passive system requires an amplifier, or two amplifiers if the internal passive crossover is a limiting factor, some kind of DSP to drive the system, and someone with a lot of experience to program the DSP for both tonality as well as driver protection, not to mention a good enough wedge to start with so you end up with something reasonable.  If you're willing to spend $1000 on the wedge (JBL SRX712M, Radian Microwedge, etc.) and another $1000 on an amp and DSP, you'll beat out most of the mid range active speakers.  I'm not sure you get equivalent performance for much less than that.

I don't have a horse in this race and I don't mean to keep beating on this issue, but since my experience with active boxes is so good, I guess I'm just trying to make you think hard about this.  I've spent a lot of years suffering with less than wonderful gear because it was gear the "fit the budget".  At this point in my life I'd much rather have less good quality equipment rather than more lower quality equipment.
Logged

Aaron Fisk

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: New church plant sound setup
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 05:25:03 pm »

I'd be curious to know what their reasons are, what passive wedges they're going to, and how they're driving them.  I suspect the reasons are more complicated (and probably moving to more expensive monitors) than "passive is better".

Most reasonable quality active speakers (QSC K, QSC KW, QSC HPR, RCF, EV SxA, Mackie SRM450s, Mackie HD, FBT, and nearly all of the higher class actives - ADR, EAW, Meyer, etc.) are internally biamped, have high quality crossover designs (easier to do and less lossy if done before the amplifiers), have internal limiting, and have tonal processing to make the speaker sound pretty good without external EQ and be pretty hard to kill because of the internal protection. 

Getting all that in a passive system requires an amplifier, or two amplifiers if the internal passive crossover is a limiting factor, some kind of DSP to drive the system, and someone with a lot of experience to program the DSP for both tonality as well as driver protection, not to mention a good enough wedge to start with so you end up with something reasonable.  If you're willing to spend $1000 on the wedge (JBL SRX712M, Radian Microwedge, etc.) and another $1000 on an amp and DSP, you'll beat out most of the mid range active speakers.  I'm not sure you get equivalent performance for much less than that.

I don't have a horse in this race and I don't mean to keep beating on this issue, but since my experience with active boxes is so good, I guess I'm just trying to make you think hard about this.  I've spent a lot of years suffering with less than wonderful gear because it was gear the "fit the budget".  At this point in my life I'd much rather have less good quality equipment rather than more lower quality equipment.

No, I don't mind you pushing the issue.  That is why I posted what I planned on doing, to get some feedback.  I am seriously considering going with 3 EV ELX112p's.  The reviews have been good (some say better than the QSC K series), so I think that might be the route to go, especially since it will be volunteers doing all the setup and tear down (and probably running sound, unless we can find another drummer).  I appreciate the feedback. 

In terms of the wireless mics, I know you have said that you like the Line 6's, but I think we are going to go with the ATW-3000 series.  I have heard a lot of really good things about them and I am just more comfortable with an industry standard. 
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.084 seconds with 23 queries.