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Author Topic: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card  (Read 17356 times)

John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 03:21:29 pm »

For example, if there were 24 stage inputs that are always used then those could be split to the iDR-48...


Ok, 1 more question on the split idea.  What will that do for phantom power?  Will that cause problems?  Will only 1 device be able to provide phantom power?  Will that cause weird loads?  Will I need to have phantom power on at both locations or will that blow up a mic :) ?


JF
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Kent Thompson

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 03:54:14 pm »

If you can work a madi/rocknet/dante card in some how you will have a bi-directional feed to and from the computer. The issue then becomes how to feed the analog mixer and aviom system (if one exists since one is not shown in the drawing). Getting to the analog mixer you would need to use the appropriate D/A and networking gear if you use something besides the madi which will be expensive or like brad says just use an analog splitter for your production feeds
 
 
 
Connect your spliters with the through side to the console so you can use phantom from the main console only.(that's the way I would do it)
 
 
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Brad Weber

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 08:42:37 am »

There are three basic ways to split mics.  You could do a simple direct split, simply 'Y'ing the mics to all three systems (FOH, broadcast and recording).  Or you could use transformer splits with a direct and as many isolated outputs as required.  Both of these are passive processes while the third option uses active devices.  The advantage of active mic split devices is that they are the preamp and thus you distribute line level signals rather than mic level signals.  The advantage of passive splits is that it keeps all the connected systems independent in terms of preamps and gain.  With passive splits someone adjusting the preamp trim for a channel will not affect the other mixes while active splits, be it dedicated devices or within digital mixers, have the preamp before the split and thus any changes to that affect all mixes (some digital mixing systems may compensate for this by applying offseting digital gain to the other signals).  With three systems, and especially if one or more of them is located some distance from the others or may be on different power, then I generally prefer to use transformer splits. 

For a direct output and two isolated outputs I often use http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/dinms3p.pdf or http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/dinms4p.pdf.  With the 3P version you have to parallel wire the input and direct output to the same terminals while with the 4P there are dedicated direct outputs.  These mount to DIN rail meaning they can be mounted in a large NEMA box or inside a rack or whatever.

Whirlwind (http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/snakes-splitters-and-multiwiring-systems/splitters/spc82-spc83-rack-mount-splitters), Radial Engineering (http://www.radialeng.com/re-8ox.htm) and Wireworks (http://www.wireworks.com/Departments/Products/Microphone-Splitters/RackMount-XLR-IO.aspx) all offer rack mount splitters using Jensen transformers, typically with 8 channels per device.  Radial Engineering, ProCo and others offer similar devices with other transformers.

Radial Engineering also makes an 'install' version of the 8 channel splitter, http://www.frontendaudio.com/Radial-CX8-Contractor-8-Channel-Mic-Splitter-p/9999-02702.htm.  And Whirlwind, Ramtech and probbaly others will make custom splitters of as many channels as you want using Jensen, Lundahl or whatever transformers you prefer.

I typically use splitters that have one direct output, which as Kent suggested goes to the main console and provides phantom power, and as many transformer isolated outputs as needed.  Another option in terms of phantom power is to provide a dedicated 48VDC phantom power source to the input side of the splits, if you look at the Jensen DIN-MS transformers referenced above you will note they have connections for just that purpose.  If there is no one console that will always be used and able to provide phantom for all of the mics then that may be a good option.

It should be noted that passive microphone splitters with high quality transformers are not inexpensive, probably around $125 to $150+ per channel for a three way split, and that due to the number of connections involved they can be rather labor intensive to install.
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John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 02:09:37 pm »

Thanks Kent and Brad!

I really appreciate the input.  I looked at those Jensen splitters yesterday (found them on a gearslutz link) and I appreciate the input about where the phantom power comes from.

At our meeting with the architects tomorrow we're going to add the 2nd control surface with the cards and XDR as an alternate in case some bids come in lower.  I just found out today that a good size chunk of the electrical budget was over estimated on hardware, so we may be able to free up the money for what I think is the best solution.  If not, we'll probably go with the active split option.

Thanks again for all your help guys!


JF
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Mac Kerr

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 02:30:55 pm »

Thanks Kent and Brad!

I really appreciate the input.  I looked at those Jensen splitters yesterday (found them on a gearslutz link) and I appreciate the input about where the phantom power comes from.

At our meeting with the architects tomorrow we're going to add the 2nd control surface with the cards and XDR as an alternate in case some bids come in lower.  I just found out today that a good size chunk of the electrical budget was over estimated on hardware, so we may be able to free up the money for what I think is the best solution.  If not, we'll probably go with the active split option.

Thanks again for all your help guys!


JF

If you are looking at multiple iLive consoles, or a mixed environment of iLive and Yamaha or Soundcraft/Studer digital consoles you may want to look at the Rocknet Interface cards for all of those consoles. They would allow you to wire everything together on a Rocknet network loop, and have a facsimile of independent gain control for each console. With Rocknet, 1 console is defined as the master and all others (up to eight) are slaves. The master has actual control over the analog mic pre, and the slaves have control of a digital gain control within Rocknet. When the master makes a change, a reciprocal change is made in all the slaves so that there is no apparent change at the slaves. When a slave makes a change it is only to the network outputs feeding that console's inputs.

Mac
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John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 03:04:43 pm »

They would allow you to wire everything together on a Rocknet network loop, and have a facsimile of independent gain control for each console.

Thanks for the link, Mac!  I'm checking it out right now.  Do I understand correctly that if I use one of these cards to a network, I would still still need an XDR to have both the aviom card AND the MADI card?  Or does this allow me to run the Rocknet as a separate network that replaces the A-net protocol that the IDR and control surfaces would run on?


JF
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Kent Thompson

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 06:35:09 pm »

You can't use the rocknet card if you use an xdr because you need an ACE card in the idr48 to connect to the xdr. The XDR only has one B port option so it basically replaces the B slot you filled with the ACE card. No matter how you slice it your one port short. The only way to get more ports is to step up to the idr10 which is modular and a lot more money. The MMO card is taking up the only spare port you get. To go with any other card you have to ditch the MMO card which you can't do if you are using Aioms with it unless you take your aviom signals from analog sources not digital. The Rocknet and other cards make it easier getting sound in and out of the computer but, completely takes away your aviom card.
 
 
Hope I cleared that up.
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John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 06:52:57 pm »

you need an ACE card in the idr48 to connect to the xdr.

Thanks Kent!  I was wondering if the Rocknet replaced the Ace card (port A) or could only be installed in port b.



Thanks for clearing that up!


JF
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 10:18:39 am »

If you are looking at multiple iLive consoles, or a mixed environment of iLive and Yamaha or Soundcraft/Studer digital consoles you may want to look at the Rocknet Interface cards for all of those consoles. They would allow you to wire everything together on a Rocknet network loop, and have a facsimile of independent gain control for each console.

A possible competitive solution would be Dante over CAT5.  Dante is supported by Yamaha (MY16-AUD) and will be supported by the iLive in 2011 if press releases are any guide. Research may turn up more info about other vendors.  Dante runs over standard ethernet wiring and is compatible with standard ethernet hardware such as switches and routers. There's even a Dante interface for computer recording that needs no additional hardware, just the ethernet port on your PC!
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Brad Weber

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 11:47:51 am »

Kent pretty well summed up the basic issue, the iDR-16/32/48/64 and XDR all have one ACE port and one open slot.  The main work surface will require the ACE port on the main iDR rack, so that leaves one slot for another ACE device (an expansion rack or second work surface) or for a MMO, MADI, Dante, Rocknet or EtherSound module, but only for any one of those.  And if you have an expansion rack then that would use its ACE port to connect to the main rack and only have one slot.

So if you added an expansion rack and a second work surface then all the ACE ports and slots would be used  for the rack and work surface communications with no slots available for MMO, MADI, Dante, Rocknet or EtherSound modules.  That means that all conectivity would have to be analog.  So 48 house inputs and 32 computer playback inputs for 70 inputs.  And 12-16 house outputs, 16 Aviom outputs, four broadcast outputs and 32 recording outputs for a total of 64-68 outputs.  The output count dictates at least two iDR-64 racks or equivalent and the channel counts mean perhaps getting a bit creative in terms of keeping within the 64 channel bus structure, for example not having the 48 house inputs and 32 playback outputs all available at the same time.  You'd also need an Aviom input box and four 8 channel audio I/O interfaces to get the analog signals into and out of the Aviom and recording systems.

Looking at your sketch and counting up the I/O made me realize that you show 48 stage inputs but no local FOH inputs.  No CD player or video program audio or talkback mic or anything like that.  Are those included in the 48 channels or might there actually be more than 48 inputs required for the house?  And would all such inputs be addressed via I/O at the work surface or might more than 48 inputs be required at the rack(s)?

Mac, with the iLive-T having only one slot in the racks and none in the work surfaces, which are llimited to communicating to a rack via ACE, would the Rocknet approach still work?  I think that may be one of the areas where this system seems sort of beyond the intended application of the iLive-T and into more of an iLive application.  If you were to move to the iLive series then the ability to have cards in the rack and work surface as well as an MMO card rather than module might open up some other options.
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