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Author Topic: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card  (Read 17872 times)

Brad Weber

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 06:40:46 pm »

Let's see if I can summarize this correctly.  You are purchasing an iLive t112/48 system with the M-MMO card for the iDR-48 MixRack.  You want to have 12-16 analog outputs for the house system, 32 analog outputs to a dedicated audio-for-video mixer, 16 channels to an Aviom system and 24 outputs to a PC for recording.  Is that a valid summary?

Since you are getting a 48 input console and only talking about 24 channels to the recording, 32 channels for the video mix and 16 channels to the Aviom then I assume those are being sent some variety of inputs and mixes.  This may be an important consideration as it would explain why splitting the analog mic signals to FOH and video apparently isn't an option.  Then again, maybe splitting 24 of the analog inputs along with 8 analog outputs from the iDR-48 would suffice for the video feeds.

My first thought was to get a second iDR-48 rack.  That would give you a total of 48 analog outputs, so that covers the 32 for video plus 16 for house sound.  The M-MMO card in either rack would then support the recording and Aviom.  Or you could use an Aviom card in one MixRack for the Aviom system and a Dante card in the other MixRack to run direct do a computer using the Dante Virtual Soundcard license that comes with the Dante interface card (thus needing no special card in the computer).

Edit: I realized that you actually want 32 outputs to the video mixer, so edited accordingly.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 10:31:15 pm by Brad Weber »
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 08:20:18 pm »


And the b*ringer unit still doesn't get me to my DAW without another device accepting ADAT and analog inputs, right?  It only

The Behringer ADA 8000 does 8 line/mic analog inputs to ADAT, *and* ADAT to 8 line outputs. It does both A/D, D/A, multiplex to  ADAT, and demultiplex from ADAT.
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Brad Weber

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 11:08:06 pm »

The Behringer ADA 8000 does 8 line/mic analog inputs to ADAT, *and* ADAT to 8 line outputs. It does both A/D, D/A, multiplex to  ADAT, and demultiplex from ADAT.
The M-MMO card provides only ADAT out, no ADAT in, so what would you connect the ADAT out of the ADA 8000 to?  And since the ADAT In signals do not pass to the ADAT Out on the ADA 8000, with the analog outputs going to the video feeds how does audio get to the recording computer?

I actually missed the issue of playback from the computer earlier.  Recording and playing back 24 channels means also needing 24 inputs to the iLive.  The M-MMO card has no inputs, so 24 channel playback would require 24 analog inputs to the iLive system or a different interface card in a second MixRack.  It's not a cheap solution but a second iDR rack could provide a system with sufficient analog outputs for both the house system and video feeds while an M-MMO card in one rack could address the Aviom sends and a Dante or MADI card in the second mix rack could take care of the recording inputs and outputs.  If you also used the analog outputs on the work surface then an iDR-32 might suffice, if not then probably a second iDR-48.

Another option might be to consider if you could use a standard Aviom I/O box, split 16 mic inputs to the video console and iDR-48, split 8 mics to the iDR-48, video console and Aviom system inputs and then maybe 8 analog outputs on the iLive to video mixer and Aviom system inputs.  Then you could put a MADI or Dante card in the MixRack for recording.
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Kent Thompson

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 01:19:45 am »

Since I failed to read closely the first time here is the response I should have made.


You have no digital in with the MMO card so with the idr48 and the MMO card you would have to have 32 analog channels open to return signal from the computer for playback which you could get with a couple of XDR but, then that nixes the MMO card since you would have to replace it with an ACE card. The only solution I see working would be a dual rack setup which takes the port b from the first mix rack into port a of the second then fit the b port in the second rack with the MMO card. This means you will have to gain share and you will not be able to use 2 ilive surfaces until the firmware allows but, it gives you enough analog inputs from your computer and digital outputs for your computer. You could then use the hearback outputs(with converters) with some ada8000s to get analog to your analog console. This setup would not allow the use of a dante, ethersound or rocknet card for direct recording to a computer.
Really it sounds like you need an IDR10 but, it is a whole lot more money.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:23:34 am by Kent Thompson »
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Arnold B. Krueger

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 08:02:46 am »

The M-MMO card provides only ADAT out, no ADAT in, so what would you connect the ADAT out of the ADA 8000 to?  And since the ADAT In signals do not pass to the ADAT Out on the ADA 8000, with the analog outputs going to the video feeds

All true. I was just fleshing out what the ADA8000 does.  I see only the output side of the ADA8000 being used in this application.

Quote
how does audio get to the recording computer?

Please note my prior discusison of the M-Audio Lightbridge.

Quote
I actually missed the issue of playback from the computer earlier.  Recording and playing back 24 channels means also needing 24 inputs to the iLive.

Playing back all 24 channels to mix offline seems like an expensive time waster. The most time-effective and and lowest cost way to do offline mixing of computer files is to use DAW sofware.  It also yields the highest possible quality when it avoids additional  analog to/from digital conversions. The downside for people who are not already competent with a DAW is that they have a learning curve ahead of them.

IMO being able to mix effectively on a DAW is a canonical skill for anybody who thinks they have sufficient breadth and depth in audio production.



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Brad Weber

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 08:07:09 am »

This setup would not allow the use of a dante, ethersound or rocknet card for direct recording to a computer.
The slot in the 'Master' iDR would indeed currently need to have an ACE card to connect to the 'Slave' rack, so with two iDR racks there would be only one open slot and that would probably need the M-MMO card to have the Aviom connection.  I guess an option to that would be to use split or dedicated analog outputs for the Aviom, in which case a MADI or Dante card could be used in the second rack for the computer.

I am still a bit confused by the channel counts and what would be going where.  With the iDR48 planned you have 48 analog inputs.  You plan on running 16 channels to Aviom, which is common and would typically be some combination of directs and mixes.  However, you also seem to plan to run 32 channels to video and 24 channels to a computer for multi-channel recording and playback.  If teh system has 48 inputs then typically those feeds would include all 48 inputs and maybe some other mixes.  Are you actually going to have 48 inputs to the system or will there be only 24 or 32 inputs to the system?  That could impact some of the possible approaches.
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John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 11:57:10 am »


I am still a bit confused by the channel counts and what would be going where. 

Thanks Brad!  I apologize for not being clear, let me sketch out a quick drawing to show what I'm thinking.

Let's see if I can summarize this correctly.  You are purchasing an iLive t112/48 system with the M-MMO card for the iDR-48 MixRack.  You want to have 12-16 analog outputs for the house system, 32 analog outputs to a dedicated audio-for-video mixer, 16 channels to an Aviom system and 24 outputs to a PC for recording.  Is that a valid summary?



Close, we're looking for the 16 channels via aviom card to the stage, and then 32 channels to the broadcast mixer for recording and training later via playback (from the daw).  The aviom card gives us 24 of the 32 we need for recording (in addition to the 16 for the stage), the other 8 would be taken from the IDR 48 (which has a total of 24 analog outs).


A simpler way would be to say "I have an iLive IDR48 with the aviom card, how do I get 32 channels to a DAW for recording and then to another surface for mixdown (on Sunday and during the week)?



IMO being able to mix effectively on a DAW is a canonical skill for anybody who thinks they have sufficient breadth and depth in audio production.


I understand what you're saying Arnold, but the main purpose for the DAW is so we can train our volunteers to learn how to mix what we actually use on Sundays but do it when the band isn't there and it's not a service.  Yes, if I was recording just to master later I could use just the software and be done with it, but that's not my goal.



One other thing to keep in mind, if we went with the separate surface and madi card, the IDR 48 only has 48 physical inputs but the DSP can run 64x48.


JF
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John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 11:58:49 am »

Rough Sketch

JF
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Brad Weber

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 02:39:31 pm »

In terms of your question in your sketch, the iDR racks only support one other ACE device, so if you add a second work surface or second iDR rack then the slot in the 'Master" iDR-48 would need to be an ACE card rather than ther M-MMO card shown.

One concern I would have with the configuration shown is that the recording and especially the video feeds would have multiple layers of gain and routing before the actual devices.  It should also be noted that the concept sketched would not support the 'playback' channels from the computer as the only inputs to the iLive-T system are the 48 analog inputs.

I probably was not clear before but you show 48 inputs to the system from the stage and only 32 channels to recording and video.  Can you explain what signals are going to the video and recording channels?  If there are 24 or 32 or whatever number of stage inputs that would always be routed to video and recording then maybe those could be split in the analog world prior to the iDR-48, thus reducing the number of channels that the iLive-T system needs to send to those destinations.  For example, if there were 24 stage inputs that are always used then those could be split to the iDR-48, the video console and 3 inexpensive interfaces for recording.  Then the iLive-T system would only need to support 8 additonal channels to the video and recording systems, which if they are the same signals could also be physically split.

The bottom line is that your application is beyond what the iLive-T systems were primarily intended to support.  When you think about it you are effectively looking at a system with 80 inputs (48 stage plus 32 playback) and 60 to 64 outputs (12 to 16 house, 16 Aviom and 32 split to the video mix and recording computer).  There are certainly some options to support this with an iLive-T system, however they would likely involve either multiple iDR MixRacks or analog signal splitting outside the iLive system.
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John Fiorello

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Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 03:03:44 pm »

Thanks Brad!

That's a great idea that I hadn't thought of.  Because of the size of our old board (32) we were planning on doing some bussing and some patching to get the 32 depending on what type of service was taking place, but if we just tap all 48 channels prior to the IDR, we can send them all to the control room and just patch what we need before the interfaces.

Then we're all analog anyway, which makes interfaces much cheaper, and it's not super complicated.

Of course, after thinking about the extra control surface, it's hard to go back to analog :( but it's definitely the cheaper option which makes it much more accessible in the mean time and we can always add it later.  You're right about probably needing an XDR in order to add the MADI card because of the # of card slots.  I did forget that the surface has its own outputs too, which will make it easier to hook up in the future.

Here's a video of Graham White doing what I wanted to do:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUkmkOo-LlM

Thanks for your help!!  Do you recommend an xlr splitter for 48 channels?


JF


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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: recording via lightpipe from an iLive aviom card
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 03:03:44 pm »


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