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Author Topic: Need advice for commercial install  (Read 5733 times)

St. Thomas LeDoux

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 12:42:09 pm »

Thanks again guys,

I'll try and steer my "client" away from the Pyle amps and the smaller JBL's.  While I know Behringer is a cursed brand 'round these parts, I'm not necessarily opposed to going to the low-quality budget route if it fulfills my volume needs.  The active solution seems tempting, but Behringer would really be the only affordable brand for this project, anything nicer goes immediately above our budget.  I realize that with my budget I am not going to achieve any kind of remarkable fidelity in this system anyways; besides, a weight room is not a proper listening environment.  I suppose if it came to it, I would rather have a room filled with Behringer 15's than Jbl 3.5's.  If I were providing sound for a clothes store, I might go the smaller route, but knowing the guy who owns this gym, this is going to be a loud room and he will mostly be playing heavy metal.
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Dave Scarlett

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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 02:21:23 pm »

These would seem like a better alternate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mackie-TH-15A-TH15A-15-Powered-PA-LoudSpeaker-/370522898746?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5644e2c13a
These will definitely be better speakers that will likely sound better and be built better. The only issue I see is that they are not wall mountable/flyable. Perhaps do some shopping and see if you can find some cheap actives that have this capacity.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 10:32:14 pm »

Comment withdrawn. Didn't help the conversation.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 11:45:37 pm by Jonathan Johnson »
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Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Mac Kerr

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 10:43:42 pm »

On a side note, an underpowered amp can damage speakers just as quickly (if not more quickly) than an overpowered amp. If it's regularly driven into clipping, the resulting square wave can cause the voice coil of the speaker to overheat, even if the wattage is less than the spec'd peak or RMS wattage of the speaker.

This erroneous statement has been debunked many times in these forums.

Mac
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Brad Weber

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2011, 08:14:13 am »

I know some won't like this but I'm surprised with some of the advice in this thread.
 
The room is 100'x30' and based on having designed systems for numerous health and fitness spaces I'm guessing has equipment, people, etc. breaking up the space, so how do you plan on getting anywhere near an even level throughout the space with speakers in two or four of the corners?  To get anywhere near the same level throughout the space you need multiple speakers either on the side walls or from above.  It may also be beneficial to have a system that would let you have slightly different levels in different areas of the gym.  Having the speakers overhead typically helps in terms of getting the sound where you want it and may also let you have slightly different levels in different areas, however that may take a fairly large number of speakers.  One significant factor in anything regarding the speakers is the ceiling height, which I don't believe we know.
 
Saying that a 70V systems won't cut it or won't impress reflects a limited knowledge of such systems.  First, "70V' is the signal distribution method, you could use any speakers in a 70V system.  But even if what was meant was a typical 70V, distributed ceiling speaker system then systems that deliver 100dB+ of high quality, full range sound are still quite possible, I've been involved with several.  You won't get that with a $1,000 to $1,500 budget but that is a budget constraint and not a limitation of the general approach.
 
It's also interesting that people seem to have focused almost exclusively on the speakers and not addressed the source, mix and control aspects.  What are the sources and are they to be included in the budget?  Do they want to switch between multiple sources?  Do you need to mix stereo sources to mono?  If they want a CD player, AM/FM tuner, inputs for an iPod and some way to switch or mix those sources, or anything similar to that, then the source and switching/mixing equipment could require a significant portion of the budget.  Or the use of consumer equipment that is not intended for commercial use and may have no warranty with such use.
 
With the budget noted you have to be careful to not forget that while speaker cable, speaker mounts, mounting hardware and so on may not be big value items on a per piece basis, they can start to add up.
 
I think this may be just another example of the common situation where you need to go back to your friend and ask them if they want you to proceed based on the budget number given and you'll give them what you can within that budget (budget drives the results) or do they have certain goals and expectations that have to be met and the budget will be what it needs to be to cost effectively as possible support those goals and expectations (the results drive the budget).  They may well go with the budget being the fixed factor but the $1,000 to $1,500 budget noted would make it easy to then tell them that you'll do what you can but the results will be limited.
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Chris Carpenter

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2011, 03:47:51 pm »

Saying that a 70V systems won't cut it or won't impress reflects a limited knowledge of such systems.  First, "70V' is the signal distribution method, you could use any speakers in a 70V system.  But even if what was meant was a typical 70V, distributed ceiling speaker system then systems that deliver 100dB+ of high quality, full range sound are still quite possible, I've been involved with several.  You won't get that with a $1,000 to $1,500 budget but that is a budget constraint and not a limitation of the general approach.
Thomas stated his client's budget range. Afterward, he made it clear that his client was really looking to spend on the lower end of the limit. I have nothing against 70v, but for the available budget, it is not going to deliver 100dB+ of full range sound.

I think we can agree that with the stated budget, some serious cuts will need to be made. If Thomas can convince his client to spend more, that is up to him (but I'm not placing any bets).

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duane massey

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Re: Need advice for commercial install
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2011, 05:36:52 pm »

Most of my clients are low-budget "can't win" customers, and occasionally I will walk away if the goal vs budget is impossible. Perhaps my standards are too low, or maybe I deal with a different reality than most of you, but I manage to satisfy nearly all my customers, as long as it is clearly understood upfront (in writing) that there are limitations to the system as installed.
For a one-man company, such as myself, this works, especially in the Houston market. For a larger company, it would not work at all. Know the risks, and don't tackle something you are not prepared to deal with.
Everyone (well, most, anyway) here has made good points, just depends upon your point of view.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas
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